Imprinting

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Re: Imprinting

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:05 pm

Tornado wrote:And imagine him suggesting to Edward that, since he's successfully fathered a child with a human, he should help him in his experiments? It would be interesting to hear Edward's reaction, to say the least!

That would make backhanding Jacob across the room look like a friendly clap on the shoulder!
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Re: Imprinting

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:54 am

Sorry for the double-post, mods, but it's been more than 2 months, and if anyone has thoughts about this, I'd love to hear them.

We spend so much time discussing Jacob on other threads that I keep going back to imprinting and had a new thought :idea: the other day. It is related to something Suzan posted back in March:

Suzan wrote:My train of thoughts after reading this post brought me to the suggestion that possibly imprinting happens to make sure that the wolf always protects the tribe and humans in general. A way to keep them on "the good side".


The wolves think maybe it's to pass on the wolf gene or make stronger wolves. What if it is to give the children - hopefully wolf-gene-bearing children - the best chance of survival by protecting them from their fathers?

Let's pretend, briefly, that the Twi-Quileutes live in a world without domestic violence or child abuse. Even if everybody is nicey all the time, there are still times when children drive their parents wild. A wolf's ready temper could easily flare up with a child and end up hurting or killing the child inadvertently. But if the wolf has imprinted on the mother, it becomes hugely more emotionally difficult to hurt the child, because the wolf would be deeply hurting his imprintee. Nor can I see an imprinted wolf committing child abuse or neglect or domestic violence, again, because of the injury to the imprintee. (If Sam's dad had imprinted on his mom, he could never have abandoned them and probably would not have been alcoholic.)(

It's a huge risk to be around a wolf. But it may be less of a risk if that wolf is imprinted on you or your mother. Imprinting may protect family from that risk, resulting in higher rates of survival to pass on the wolf gene.

Tell me what you think! :write:
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Re: Imprinting

Postby Tornado » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:06 am

I think that's making it a bit more confusing than it is already! It might be a side benefit of it, but I still think it's more likely to be one of the other scenarios, particularly making stronger wolves. After all, imprinting on a half vampire child, if that vampire child did not belong to a vegetarian family, is not a way to keep tribe and family members safe. And because this issue would be basically biological, if keeping the tribe safe was a motivating factor, then that would rule out a vampire hybrid. So I think it's unlikely.
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Re: Imprinting

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:00 am

It is more complicated, but still relates to survival of the child and the gene. I was thinking more directly in terms of survival of the child(ren), not of the tribe - I was referencing Suzan's idea because the concept is close though not identical. Biologically-driven impulses may not rise to the tribal level, the selfish gene can only understand self-preservation. Imprinting on a vampire-hybrid, even one that was not vegetarian, would still protect the children of such a union, although I think it would be unlikely to happen - I think Jacob and Nessie are a truly unique pair, and not a great basis for a general discussion of imprinting.

Something else that may connect to this is the fact that tribal members who carry the wolf gene, but don't have it activated, never imprint. It may be just that, since it's not activated, they remain human and humans don't imprint. But their children also don't need an unusual level of protection from them, which supports this imprinting-to-protect-from-the-risk-of-being-around-a-wolf idea.

I think keeping the tribe (and humans in general) safe has to be left up to the thinking minds of grown (or nearly) wolves, who have consciences and can see beyond the survival of their own progeny.
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Re: Imprinting

Postby Tornado » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:30 am

Yes, but there are still clearly cases of wolves who haven't imprinted, both now and in the past. That argument might stand if all wolves imprint, but that hasn't happened. While it could be argued that they just never found the imprintee, certainly with the case of Taha Aki, it was wife number three who he imprinted on, which meant he was a wolf and procreating with two women before that.
It would make more sense if they were unable to have children with anyone who they hadn't imprinted on, but this seems not to be the case. If the reason for imprinting is really to protect spouse and children then it's not very effective if the wolf concerned can have children and relationships prior to the imprinting. What about their safety?
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Re: Imprinting

Postby MysticsOcean » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:26 am

I think the whole idea of imprinting is slightly bizarre. It is not enough to turn me off from the books. My biggest problem with Jacob imprinting on Renesmee is the fact that he becomes more like the father figure to her instead of Edward. I could be misunderstanding Jacob's role in her life, but I felt like Edward was not as close to his daughter as he should be - that Jacob sort of assumed that role. That always bothered me, because I think it would have been a lot sweeter to see more scenes between Edward and Renesmee.

The other part that I find bizarre about is, what is Jacob going to tell Renesmee about Bella. When she gets older and they are together and in love, "hey Renesmee, so I made out with your mom when we were teenagers." I can not imagine ever learning that about the love of my life - that he once loved my mother.
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Re: Imprinting

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:35 pm

Good point about the father figure, MysticsOcean. SM conceptualizes it as an older brother role, but Jake's around so much that he kind of usurps Edward, esp since E doesn't want to leave B during the transformation

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Re: Imprinting

Postby Tornado » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:40 pm

That's only during the transformation, though. We don't get to see a lot of family life outside of that. The only other instances that are related where Edward is not with Renesmee and Bella is when they go hunting and find Irina, and he can't be there or he would have read her mind and known what was upsetting her. And when Bela goes to J Jenks, again, he can't go with them, because he'll try and find out what's going on. These events are necessary to the plot so they are the ones we get to see, but there's every reason to believe that Edward spends time with his daughter, we just don't see it. Jake's role would be similar to the relationship Quil has with Claire, I'd say.
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Re: Imprinting

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:03 pm

I'm in the middle of a similar conversation elsewhere with someone who feels that Jacob reduced Edward to a midwife and sperm donor (which I disagree with). Sadly, we don't see much of the family life; but I get the clear impression that Jacob is there nearly all the time, which seems like more than Quil is with Claire (Quil probably goes to his own home at night). I am in the middle of slowly getting slightly more ticked off at Jacob and his role in EC and BD, although still grateful to him for protecting the Cullens, allowing the exception to the treaty, etc. Anyway, Jacob seems more involved with Ness than Quil with Claire, and from Nessie's memories we know that her thoughts of Jacob outnumber those of Edward, at least at the three-day-old mark. I hope it changes but I don't find any information proving that.
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Re: Imprinting

Postby Tornado » Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:19 pm

I think he is probably around more often, certainly, but remember that we are seeing exceptional circumstances at this stage. Even before the Volturi are coming they are concerned about Renesmee's rapidly advancing age, so there are a lot of issues that surround Nessie that Jacob probably feels he needs to know about, and fair enough, as he cares about her.

Also, before the Volturi turn up, it seems that Jake usually does go home at night (when he comes to the Cullens after they have found out the Volturi are coming he is surprised that Bella, Edward and Renesmee are still there, as they would normally have left for their cottage by that time). Also Bella points out at one stage that he's going to go and finish school at some stage, so I think after the craziness of the Volturi coming is over and now that they know that Renesmee's going to be okay it would probably return to something a bit more normal. He would go back to school (although I'm sure still seeing Renesmee every day) and finish his studies.

Certainly his relationship with Renesmee is going to have different attributes from Quil's with Claire, as Claire will age normally, and eventually Quil will probably want to stop phasing to age with her, whereas Jacob will want to keep phasing so that he doesn't age to live forever with Renesmee, which means he will be in the same boat as the Cullens, and will have to move with them because he is not ageing. So he will probably, by the time that they move, be around a lot, but I don't think that means he will usurp Edward's role, especially as Edward's role is father, and Jacob's role is just to make Renesmee happy, and will eventually morph into lover. That's certainly a different role from a father. By the time they do move she'll probably be like a ten year old or something, so he'll probably be more like a school friend to her at that point, again, a very different role from Edward's
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