The Volturi Coven and Guard

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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:07 pm

DK, when I said your logic is faulty I was referring to your assertion that if the Volturi were as bad as we all think they are, they would have already taken the Cullens out. That logic is flawed, and I've already stated why.

Really? We can't say that the fact that Volturi are completely abusing their station for Aro's whims and obsessions is bad? If everyone is self serving, explain the Cullens. They choose not to eat humans - a distinctly selfless thing to do, as they're denying themselves the only thing that satiates their burning thirst. Carlisle chooses a profession which is dedicated entirely to helping people, no matter the fact that he is constantly around blood and so is constantly battling himself to resist. Self- interest may govern all, at the most basic level, but most people fight that and do things that are good and help others.

And for your information, things ARE being done about Darfur. But the government in Sudan is so corrupt that until they are taken out of power there is not much that can be done, because the money raised goes straight to them and not those who need it, and all-out war would simply agitate the situation. There are numerous organizations out there dedicated to helping Darfur, but unfortunately government is a machine, not a person, and there are a heck of a lot of tragedies in the world for the UN to think about. But people are trying to do their best to help those situations, thank you oh so very much.
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby dandyvampgirl_13 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:55 pm

Not that the UN can do anything anyways, however, props to them for trying.

The Dark Knight wrote:They don't need a reason to take anyone down. No one is able to do anything about them right now anyway. They can write the outcome and reason afterward. Who would say anything about it? Read above they have plenty of reasons to wipe out the Cullen’s and their allies...

As David said, they do need a reason to attack anyone, or their entire basis of power would collapse. If they took out a coven, even if it was small and unliked, without a good reason, they would fall under suspiscion from the rest of "vampiredom". The other vampires wouldn't see the Volturi stepping in as the good guys, taking care of business, but as collectors using and abusing their power to take what they want. It would scare them, and they'd be worried that their coven is next, like Amun was. And if they had a bad reason, others would see through it and still be scared. A scared population that knows what to rise up against, what is the dangerous thing, they will rise given the right pressure. (That's why Voldemort's take over was so successful. People knew who was taking over, but he was almost an invisible, intangible force, and couldn't be directly fought against.) If the Volturi did something like that, the vampires would know who to blame it on and how to defend themselves. The Cullens provided that example. So the Volturi, once they knew their reasons had vanished and there was nothing else keeping up the housekeeping appearence, left while they were still presentable, to cut their losses. If they hadn't, their good name would have been ruined, and the respect they once had lost forever.
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby The Dark Knight » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:15 am

Humm, politics are so fun.

Do you think Hitler’s reason for invading the Rein or Poland really mattered to those that where slaughtered? I'm sure the 100,000+ dead in Darfur don't care that people wish things would get better but it's hard to care when your dead. Does the dead really have a voice? Not much. If and when the Voltaire chooses to take out a coven they will find a pretext to make it happen. At the moment the Cullen's have too many advantages to do a straight assault on them. So attacking their support structure or waiting till they are single out will be the course of action. It's more like the game Go than Chess but given the amount of time and resources they have, the Voltaire will deal with this insurrection.

Politics is a cruel mistress that demands servitude and those in charge can sway things with misinformation and propaganda. The Cullen's are a peace loving and non-combative group that will not be able to handle the other outside forces that can be brought to bear upon them. That's the Cullen's WIIFM (What' in it for me), they care and wish to make the world a better place, that's their self serving piece. Thus they turn their back on they culture and many see it as a form of disrespect that can easily give rise to other less than kind feelings. Can you see how that will be exploited?
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby diane771 » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:29 am

The Dark Knight wrote:Humm, politics are so fun.

Do you think Hitler’s reason for invading the Rein or Poland really mattered to those that where slaughtered? I'm sure the 100,000+ dead in Darfur don't care that people wish things would get better but it's hard to care when your dead. Does the dead really have a voice? Not much. If and when the Voltaire chooses to take out a coven they will find a pretext to make it happen. At the moment the Cullen's have too many advantages to do a straight assault on them. So attacking their support structure or waiting till they are single out will be the course of action. It's more like the game Go than Chess but given the amount of time and resources they have, the Voltaire will deal with this insurrection.

Politics is a cruel mistress that demands servitude and those in charge can sway things with misinformation and propaganda. The Cullen's are a peace loving and non-combative group that will not be able to handle the other outside forces that can be brought to bear upon them. That's the Cullen's WIIFM (What' in it for me), they care and wish to make the world a better place, that's their self serving piece. Thus they turn their back on they culture and many see it as a form of disrespect that can easily give rise to other less than kind feelings. Can you see how that will be exploited?


I still do not agree with that. If Alice had not seen them coming they would have killed the with no questions even asked. And when they saw all of the Cullens witnesses they still tried to kill them so how can you say that? Are you leaving out the part where even after they know that Nessie isn't a newborn, Alec's I think it was him started the fog. Bella put up her shield and Benjeman first tried to blow it then opened the earth. Did you miss that. The Culles had the wolves, the Romanians and the Denali coven and the South American there and they still didn't care they wanted to kill everybody. only to back down when they realize that they might not win.
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby ringswraith » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:48 am

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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby The Dark Knight » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:15 am

diane771 wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:Humm, politics are so fun.

Do you think Hitler’s reason for invading the Rein or Poland really mattered to those that where slaughtered? I'm sure the 100,000+ dead in Darfur don't care that people wish things would get better but it's hard to care when your dead. Does the dead really have a voice? Not much. If and when the Voltaire chooses to take out a coven they will find a pretext to make it happen. At the moment the Cullen's have too many advantages to do a straight assault on them. So attacking their support structure or waiting till they are single out will be the course of action. It's more like the game Go than Chess but given the amount of time and resources they have, the Voltaire will deal with this insurrection.

Politics is a cruel mistress that demands servitude and those in charge can sway things with misinformation and propaganda. The Cullen's are a peace loving and non-combative group that will not be able to handle the other outside forces that can be brought to bear upon them. That's the Cullen's WIIFM (What' in it for me), they care and wish to make the world a better place, that's their self serving piece. Thus they turn their back on they culture and many see it as a form of disrespect that can easily give rise to other less than kind feelings. Can you see how that will be exploited?


I still do not agree with that. If Alice had not seen them coming they would have killed the with no questions even asked. And when they saw all of the Cullens witnesses they still tried to kill them so how can you say that? Are you leaving out the part where even after they know that Nessie isn't a newborn, Alec's I think it was him started the fog. Bella put up her shield and Benjeman first tried to blow it then opened the earth. Did you miss that. The Culles had the wolves, the Romanians and the Denali coven and the South American there and they still didn't care they wanted to kill everybody. only to back down when they realize that they might not win.


That what I mean about the Cullen's had too many advantages going for them. The Voltaires can just wait and take out the support structure, recruit those need to get rid of Bella's shield. They may even find a way to get Alice, Edward and Bella on their side. Who know's they might someday come to the Cullen's and ask for help to deal with soemthing that their talents are useful for. Aro is a smart and far thinking creature...Who know what he has planned...
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby diane771 » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:27 am

What was so smart of him to attack the Cullens in BD? and he was not going to take survivors so your theory is not there in this reffrence. So the Volturi are still evil and not to be trusted and are not good leaders. When Aro said that Nessie wasn't a problem they could have left but they did not. They made the first move and that was to kill. and even their witnesses knew what was going to happen and they got out of there. So our last glimpse of the Volturi is them trying to kill innocent people for no reason. But just because they wanted to, and most likely they wanted to show their wifes how heroic they were. And noone crosses the Volture, but they left with their tail between their legs.
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby The Dark Knight » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:42 am

Cut in below...

ringswraith wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:Humm, politics are so fun.

Do you think Hitler’s reason for invading the Rein or Poland really mattered to those that where slaughtered? I'm sure the 100,000+ dead in Darfur don't care that people wish things would get better but it's hard to care when your dead. Does the dead really have a voice? Not much. If and when the Voltaire chooses to take out a coven they will find a pretext to make it happen. At the moment the Cullen's have too many advantages to do a straight assault on them. So attacking their support structure or waiting till they are single out will be the course of action. It's more like the game Go than Chess but given the amount of time and resources they have, the Voltaire will deal with this insurrection.

Politics is a cruel mistress that demands servitude and those in charge can sway things with misinformation and propaganda. The Cullen's are a peace loving and non-combative group that will not be able to handle the other outside forces that can be brought to bear upon them. That's the Cullen's WIIFM (What' in it for me), they care and wish to make the world a better place, that's their self serving piece. Thus they turn their back on they culture and many see it as a form of disrespect that can easily give rise to other less than kind feelings. Can you see how that will be exploited?



You go from saying the Cullens have too many advantages for the Volturi to take a direct assault on them, and then say that the Cullens won't be able to handle the forces that can be brought to bear against them.

[color=#0040FF]***Did you bother to read the context around each statement? If so you would get there are two different types of battles going on. First is a straight out assault where the Cullen's had time to prepare. The second is a propaganda war that has it's aim at making the Cullen's look bad. Two different things entirely...


1. Which is it? And,
2. Judging by what happened at the conclusion of Breaking Dawn, I think they're able to handle whatever comes their way.

***Actually they got lucky to have escaped with their skins on. All the Voltaire had to do is take out Bella and the rest would have fallen quickly. A few guards at best expended.

Re: Hitler. I think you're misunderstanding what we have been saying. The dead can't do anything, but it's not the dead we're talking about. It's everyone else. Did other nations not take action upon learning of Hitler's atrocities? By the same token, if the Volturi somehow manages to eliminate Carlisle's coven, the other covens are not likely to take the news sitting down.

***That's given that the more powerful covens find out in time. If not they could be destroyed quickly and quietly before anyone get's the wiser. Once done the Voltaire’s would have no issue writing the history about how the bad Covens need to be dealt with because of XYZ pretext. Who would be able to say otherwise and live?

Re: The Cullens turning their back on their culture. What culture? Do you mean their way of life? Again, I think you're grasping at straws here. It didn't bother the Volturi when Carlisle was with them, it didn't cause them to kill the Denali sisters when they came knocking regarding their mother's immortal baby (and going with your reasoning, they should have been dead then, because they too are "vegetarians" and that should have been another strike against the sisters- but no, they weren't destroyed), it should not bother them now. They think it's quaint, and that's all there is to it. Who is this "many" that you speak of that see it as a form of disrespect?

***Actually SM even mentions that many vampires think the Veggie life style is an abomination. Edward mentions that to Bella in a back handed way in Twilight. The Vampire credo is to live off the human cattle not the farm animals of their prey. The Voltaire’s can use that prejudice to create unrest with that lifestyle. Thus giving rise to a pretext later or a Vampire law change. This is a basic move in warfare, it's called isolating your enemy with propaganda. The Denali sisters are on the list to be dealt with you know.

And don't think I missed the part where you finally agreed that the Volturi do need a reason to go eliminate the Cullens- or anyone. ;) [/color]


***Need a reason, no they can trump one up as needed. Again, to the victor the spoils, and in this case the ability to write the history as they want it to read.


***Ring you may want to read a few books on this subject. The Art of War by Tzu Su, The Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi and the Prince by Machiavelli. They are great reads and they might help you understand the Voltaire mindset. This engagement is but the first one in the war to come. That’s what the Romanians meant when they left in BD.
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby The Dark Knight » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:51 am

diane771 wrote:What was so smart of him to attack the Cullens in BD? and he was not going to take survivors so your theory is not there in this reffrence. So the Volturi are still evil and not to be trusted and are not good leaders. When Aro said that Nessie wasn't a problem they could have left but they did not. They made the first move and that was to kill. and even their witnesses knew what was going to happen and they got out of there. So our last glimpse of the Volturi is them trying to kill innocent people for no reason. But just because they wanted to, and most likely they wanted to show their wifes how heroic they were. And noone crosses the Volture, but they left with their tail between their legs.



Actually Diane, they have to kill the Cullen's now. If for nothing more than maintaining Face. You use the word Evil freely here but not with Edward the mass murderer? The Cullen's are not innocent by far, just the treaty with the Quileute’s is a problem let alone Charlie.

Aro is a Go player more than a Chess player. The move to kill the Cullen's and company would be costly and weaken their position. Not the best move to make when you have time and patience to maneuver. Aro likely wants his collection and just has not found the proper leverage yet to get what he wants. Give it time. Wars are won in the “Will.”
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby ringswraith » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:52 am

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