Jacob and Nessie

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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sat May 09, 2009 12:03 am

.....because Jacob could totally control that.....
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby ringswraith » Sat May 09, 2009 12:33 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:.....because Jacob could totally control that.....


What she said. It's not like Jacob (or any of the Pack) got a choice in the matter.

"You're about to imprint on an infant! Accept/Reject?"
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sat May 09, 2009 12:51 am

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA thanks for that!!!!

This is exactly why I'm not a big fan of imprinting. It takes the magic out of falling in love!!!!
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby Knives » Sat May 09, 2009 1:00 am

Disclaimer - The following post is being written by an anti-fan. I'm not here to troll, flame anyone, start fights, or put you down for liking the books. As always, I apologize in advance if I offend anyone.

Jacob and Nessie...oh boy. Remember the part on Jacob's character thread, where I saw heavy evidence of Stephenie being the "writer on board" (that is, using Jacob as a plot device, a Deus Ex Machina, a patch-job on a plot hole, et cetera)? This is the Big Kahuna of Things She Did Wrong.

The issues don't remain at potential pedophilia and child grooming (the discussion of which is forbidden by site policy, though if you want my opinions thereupon I do encourage you to PM me). They actually start with major plot holes and world inconsistencies used to bring this pairing about at the absolute last minute. The suggestion (and according to some sources, explicit statement) that Jacob imprinted on the egg that would become Nessie is ludicrous even by the mystically/scientifically vague "rules" that the series' universe functions under. Even if one were to argue that he didn't imprint until she started developing, there's not only no precedent but no logical reason for such an occurence.

The idea of imprinting on the very young also seems very...shaky. Imprinting has been - and remains - officially declared as a reproductive mechanism. One imprints on the being most likely to pass on shapeshifter genes. Nessie is already pushing the credulity of genetics; throwing another species into the mix (in this case, Jacob's shapeshifter tribe) is going to end up in...absolutely nothing. Even if one accepts the chromosome explanation given to justify Nessie's existence, her half-breed species is going to be utterly incompatible with anything like Jacob. She might - MIGHT - be able to breed with a human, a vampire, or another half-breed, but not an entirely different species. Science can't stretch THAT far, my friends.

Furthermore, if the object of imprinting is reproduction, imprinting on the very young (such as Quil imprinting on Claire) carries an incredibly heightened risk for no additional reward whatsoever. A young imprintee can die, spurn the werewolf, become injured, develop infertility, move away, et cetera, whereas imprinting on someone who is sexually active and ready carries only the normal risks associated with pregnancy. So if Jacob imprinted on Nessie after she was born, it's a high-risk-no-reward scenario, which makes about as much evolutionary sense as an animal that has to eat its own young to survive.

Personally, it feels like Stephenie cobbled together this relationship, as she cobbled together most of Breaking Dawn, to tie off loose ends and create a "perfect ending" for everyone involved. Unfortunately, she didn't realize - or didn't care - that this kind of writing smacks of bad fanfiction and leaves many readers profoundly dissatisfied. I hope she can pull her act together and recognize when certain things need to remain unresolved, because if she doesn't, her fanbase may end up turning on her.

- Knives
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sat May 09, 2009 1:07 am

I'll stick to the plot-hole part of this okay??

I want to say that while I AM a fan, I agree with you here.

Nessie was SM's original ending for Jacob. But that's why it seems so forced. When Ms. Meyer planned the ending, there was no New Moon or Eclipse. There was just Twilight and Forever Dawn. So Jacob completely outgrew his character, bloomed into something all his own in New Moon and became integral in Eclipse, we had an entire third of a book from his POV in Breaking Dawn and then - BAM! - he's stuck in the tiny ending that SM allotted him in the beginning and thrown to the side in general. Nessie is never really developed as a character other than being a blessed blessed gift, so I personally can't attach to her at all. As a result of the imprint, it feels like Jacob's character just sort of fades out back to his literary device beginnings - in fact, he's less alive in the end of Breaking Dawn than he is in Twilight.
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby andrea0908 » Mon May 11, 2009 10:06 pm

Knives wrote:
Personally, it feels like Stephenie cobbled together this relationship, as she cobbled together most of Breaking Dawn, to tie off loose ends and create a "perfect ending" for everyone involved. Unfortunately, she didn't realize - or didn't care - that this kind of writing smacks of bad fanfiction and leaves many readers profoundly dissatisfied. I hope she can pull her act together and recognize when certain things need to remain unresolved, because if she doesn't, her fanbase may end up turning on her.

- Knives


I felt bad about that part too. With Jacob imprinting Nessie. I don't like to think that SM only wanted to give Jacob a happy ending after all. I just thought that maybe it's an opener to a certain plot. That she has another reason behind it. I posted a document lately in Sequel thread. Calling and hoping that SM might have the chance to read it haha, There I commented and explain somehow.If you do have time, please visit..Make some comments and tell me of your reactions too. I would love to hear them.
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby andrea0908 » Mon May 11, 2009 10:25 pm

I am not against imprinting thing. To magical and fictional characters of the saga..anything magical can happen, and it can hardly explained in reality basis. Only, I find Jacob and Nessie's imprinting mysterious. She is a daughter of the wolves natural enemy. Isn't it something to be explored? Not the concept of ..Oh yes! Our Jacob has finally imprinted! Cheers! He is now happy and end..
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby Knives » Tue May 12, 2009 11:09 am

andrea0908 wrote:I am not against imprinting thing. To magical and fictional characters of the saga..anything magical can happen, and it can hardly explained in reality basis. Only, I find Jacob and Nessie's imprinting mysterious. She is a daughter of the wolves natural enemy. Isn't it something to be explored? Not the concept of ..Oh yes! Our Jacob has finally imprinted! Cheers! He is now happy and end..


Emphasis mine.

Look...fiction, unlike real life, must have defined rules. Anton Checkov said it best when he said that he prefers fiction to reality because at least fiction has to make sense. Stephenie Meyer has murky, undefined rules for her universe that she still manages to repeatedly break and trample upon, and imprinting - especially in the case of Jacob and Nessie, as noted above - while a viable enough concept, fails to make any kind of sense in the way she applies it. So I, personally, am totally against the imprinting thing; to me, it's a Deus Ex Machina with little literary value and even less literary sense.
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby ringswraith » Tue May 12, 2009 11:32 am

I agree with the "fiction must make sense" sentiment (without taking it too far). I also agree that Jacob's imprinting on Renesmee, while magical, really does feel like a "how do we patch things up at this point in time and make everyone play nice?" moment.

The first time I read it I was all "Aww..." and after rereading it a few times, now I think "Well, if that didn't happen..." It was too convenient.

Mind you I don't see any other option that would have worked the same way.
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby andrea0908 » Sat May 16, 2009 10:01 pm

Yes, I also agree of "fiction has to make sense" , it is only the creation of your imagination, and you created it supposedly with less possible complications. And you all have the research engines and materials. You formulate problems of your characters and solve it at the same time. You created things to make a story complicated and make things to resolve these complications. An author can create, edit, add, destroy, and everything to make his story logical and sensible. Unlike in reality, life, scenarios,people, situations are so complicated. We are not dealing with just one character! We are not dealing with only few emotions of few different people, and few different things, cases and etc. We are dealing on everything in real life. And we are the author of our own life and so much influenced by our surroundings. That actually complicates things, because of everything around us, we don't know what we really want. It made us leave other things behind us unresolved.

With Jacob and Nessie or Quil and Claire, it's the wishes of the author. Maybe she has reasons, let her explore more and create more possibilities, let her works mature through her characters. She is yet a newborn in the literary world. And being compared to veterans. Wow! it is something! In my personal point of view, intentionally a writer creates blind spots and loop holes to make her readers interested, dissatisfied and crave for more. A strategy to create more angles for possible stories, and a strategy to stir up the emotions of her readers. That makes him/her a good writer.

In fiction and fantasy world, the characters life are dictated or influenced by somebody's wishes. Scenes and situations are based only on authors imaginations. Or maybe adapt something real to make it seems real. Fictions can hardly be related to reality because real world can never be perfect. Perfection, extraordinary creatures, situations and anything surreal does not make sense in our world. So as imperfection does not totally make sense in a fanfic world because somebody is molding it and turning it into something extraordinary. Ideally, we are all dreaming for a perfect world because it never existed in reality. In a fanfic universe, I can make a happily ever after if my goal is a dreamworld. I can turn a butterfly into a fairy or a worst scenario a dog meowing and a wolf talking? Does it make sense in our world that a dog meowing or do you have any logical explanation why it does so? In fanfic sense I will surely have, I can make a story out of it...
Last edited by andrea0908 on Sun May 17, 2009 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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