Jacob and Nessie

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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby Knives » Sun May 17, 2009 10:38 am

andrea0908 wrote:With Jacob and Nessie or Quil and Claire, it's the wishes of the author. Maybe she has reasons, let her explore more and create more possibilities, let her works mature through her characters. She is yet a newborn in the literary world. And being compared to veterans. Wow! it is something! In my personal point of view, intentionally a writer creates blind spots and loop holes to make her readers interested, dissatisfied and crave for more. A strategy to create more angles for possible stories, and a strategy to stir the emotions of her readers. That makes him/her a good writer.


Emphasis mine (I like doing that ^_^)

I can, with actual authority, say that this statement is wrong. Ms. Meyer has a college degree in American Literature, which means she has read and analyzed some of the greatest authors this nation has to offer, which also includes a few of the greatest authors of all time. She knows - she cannot fail to know - what constitutes good writing, and she's still chosen to engage in shoddy writing full of Deus Ex Machinas, plot holes, and barely-concealed Mary Sues. Objectively speaking - in terms of grammar structure, internal world consistency, character development - Stephenie is not a good writer, but rather a very bad one. What she is is a popular writer who knows how to tug on her audience's emotions by plying her traded in wish fulfillment and supernatural fantasies.
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby Jazz Girl » Sun May 17, 2009 12:48 pm

Knives wrote:
andrea0908 wrote:With Jacob and Nessie or Quil and Claire, it's the wishes of the author. Maybe she has reasons, let her explore more and create more possibilities, let her works mature through her characters. She is yet a newborn in the literary world. And being compared to veterans. Wow! it is something! In my personal point of view, intentionally a writer creates blind spots and loop holes to make her readers interested, dissatisfied and crave for more. A strategy to create more angles for possible stories, and a strategy to stir the emotions of her readers. That makes him/her a good writer.


Emphasis mine (I like doing that ^_^)

I can, with actual authority, say that this statement is wrong. Ms. Meyer has a college degree in American Literature, which means she has read and analyzed some of the greatest authors this nation has to offer, which also includes a few of the greatest authors of all time. She knows - she cannot fail to know - what constitutes good writing, and she's still chosen to engage in shoddy writing full of Deus Ex Machinas, plot holes, and barely-concealed Mary Sues. Objectively speaking - in terms of grammar structure, internal world consistency, character development - Stephenie is not a good writer, but rather a very bad one. What she is is a popular writer who knows how to tug on her audience's emotions by plying her traded in wish fulfillment and supernatural fantasies.


Let me first say this. It probably surprises no one that the imprinting phenomenon never really bothered me. I have a love for myth and fantasy and it was honestly just another piece of the story that reinforced the fantasy of the saga. And, as is my right as a reader, I never really agreed with Chekhov's contention that fiction has to have established and inviolable rules, particularly where fantasy fiction is concerned. In the fantasy world, anything is possible. That's why it is fantasy. In the case of Jake and Ness, while I agree that it felt a little forced, like there was or should have been a little more to the story, I also try to give a little bit of benefit of the doubt to the author that we don't know what went on behind the scenes. BD was the longest book of the series and had the biggest job in terms of giving resolution to most if not all of the characters and stories. But, it also had the most fingers in the pot, so to speak. By the time BD was released, there were a lot more people involved in the editing and publishing process. We don't and may never know what had to be rearranged or cut completely for the sake of length, content or anything else.
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sun May 17, 2009 1:47 pm

Okay. I have a lot to say about this.

First of all, to SM's credit, when Jacob was introduced as a "deus ex machina" he was intended to be only a very very small part of the story. She filled him out very well though, and I think it would have been worse if she had just left him alone, because she had described him so well, and Bella's automatic liking of him. Jacob, in his character, has never seemed like a literary device to me.

Nessie, however, is the literary device to end all literary devices. She is not described as being anything more than absolutely perfect - sort of like her father - and never does anything interesting at all.

What I find interesting about her is that she and Jacob were originally meant to be together, before New Moon and Eclipse happened. She was putting her two plot devices together. I think, in the beginning, Nessie was SM's way of making sure Bella got everything she could have wanted, which is fine. But what made the imprinting thing feel forced is that she then put a plot device with a REAL character, and that simply doesn't work, IMO.

I think SM is good at creating characters that capture our hearts and evoke our emotions. Alice, Jacob, Rosalie, Emmett, Esme, Charlie, Renee, Billy, even poor old Mike. They are just so real. But I think it's funny that at least for me, the two most unrealistic or unrelatable characters are the two main ones.
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby Knives » Sun May 17, 2009 3:37 pm

Anything may be possible in fantasy, Jazz, but that doesn't excuse bad writing. That's why ideas like internal world consistency exist in the first place; they weren't dreamed-up by a shadowy board of people who arbitrarily put a definition on good writing, they're things that do, and have, made good stories. If Beowulf had suddenly gained the ability to walk on walls for no explainable reason, the audiences listening to the epic would have called shenanigans - likewise, if Harry had suddenly gained laser vision, Cyclops-style, modern audiences would have complained just as much, or even more, loudly.

It's fine for Meyer to define her world however she wants to, even if she doesn't choose to stick to (any of) the real-world mythological roots that inspired it. What is not okay is for her to violate the rules and definitions she already set. That's not only bad writing, it's bad worldbuilding, and it's something I'd expect to see in fan fiction, not published works.
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby Dovrebanen » Sun May 17, 2009 3:58 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Okay. I have a lot to say about this.

First of all, to SM's credit, when Jacob was introduced as a "deus ex machina" he was intended to be only a very very small part of the story. She filled him out very well though, and I think it would have been worse if she had just left him alone, because she had described him so well, and Bella's automatic liking of him. Jacob, in his character, has never seemed like a literary device to me.

I agree. Jacob turned out to be a major and important character, and he seemed to be a natural part of the story.


I personally was not happy with the imprinting on Nessie. I think imprinting was an easy way to "fix" Jacob. To get rid of all the tension between Bella and Jacob, because SM wanted things to work out between them. We had hardly gotten to know Nessie. She was just a baby when Jacob imprinted on her, and suddenly all his feelings for Bella were resolved and he was happy ever after. It just didn't work for me.
I wanted Jacob to have the time to find himself again. To get back on his feet on his own. And if that meant that he had to take off for a while, or forever, so be it. I didn't want the easy and involuntary way out for him.
If I could choose, I wouldn't want Nessie at all. I think Bella and Edward should have had the time together, and not bring a baby into it.

I don't however see it as bad writing from SM.BD is an ok book. I just wanted the story to be different, if I could have the choice.
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sun May 17, 2009 4:35 pm

I don't think it's written very well personally. It seems to have lost the old spark. I think the highlight of her actual writing prowess is Eclipse. There are a couple moments when BD gets reminiscent to me of a bad romance novel.
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby amethyst » Sun May 17, 2009 5:47 pm

Knives -- I absolutely agree… there are parts of the series that frustrate me because they are not consistent with previous suggestions or the rules in the world that she had created. I think Stephenie Meyer is a good storyteller, she can grasp a reader right from the beginning (this isn‘t true for all people. But generally for the people who enjoy the series), but that does not mean that she is a good writer… she admits this herself… like lets say Stephen King even though his books bore me to tears but they are, admittedly, well written and consistent.

I am still undecided whether I like that Jacob imprinted on Renesmee or not. Sometimes this very fact makes me shudder, simply because of how interrelated Jacob was with Bella prior to imprinting and simply because it is inconsistent and contradictory to her previous rules (this brings great frustration to me). At the moment, I am indifferent about it!
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby vampirenerd » Sun May 17, 2009 7:17 pm

I agree with the fact that the imprinting seemed to be an easy way to fix Jacob's problems. I personally don't like it because it seems really odd that you would imprint on someone when you were so in love and fought so hard for their mother. It does seem to be a way to make everyone happy, but I personally don't think Jacob should have went from being obsessive over Bella to being obsessive over Nessie. He needed some time to find himself, to get used to the idea that Bella was changed and that things were going to be different. Also, just the fact that she was a baby is weird for me
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby Dovrebanen » Mon May 18, 2009 2:40 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:I don't think it's written very well personally. It seems to have lost the old spark. I think the highlight of her actual writing prowess is Eclipse. There are a couple moments when BD gets reminiscent to me of a bad romance novel.

I agreee that BD is the weakest book. And it is my least favorite book. There are parts of it that I love. The wedding, Isle Esme. And the end. And Jacob is a funny guy. But other parts, I really don't like. I know you haven't read it, hofj, but for me, SM is the strongest writer in MS. And I also love how she conveys Bella's hurt in NM.
vampirenerd wrote:It does seem to be a way to make everyone happy, but I personally don't think Jacob should have went from being obsessive over Bella to being obsessive over Nessie. He needed some time to find himself, to get used to the idea that Bella was changed and that things were going to be different. Also, just the fact that she was a baby is weird for me

That's exactly how I felt. Jacob needed time to grieve over Bella. He had loved her for so long, and now she was lost to him. He needed to deal with his problems on his own. He needed to take some time to figure out what to do with his life. Should he go back to the La Push? Should he run away? Finish high school? Instead, everything was decided for him the moment he came down the stairs after loosing the love of his life. He imprints on a baby, and suddenly his entire future is decided... He will always stay with the Cullen's, and his mission in life is to keep Nessie happy. And to quote Kristen from Twilight: "Zero weirdness" with Bella. It should be weird and awkward. They should talk and deal with Bella being a vampire.
So in my opinion, imprinting was an easy way out. BD was already turning into a brick of a book, so SM probably felt that she couldn't spend too many pages on fixing Jacob. Solution: Impriting on Bella's daughter. Too easy in my opinion.
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Re: Jacob and Nessie

Postby ringswraith » Mon May 18, 2009 2:08 pm

Totally agree with the whole "Renesmee as a very convenient plot device" comments. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong, please) that is was holdingoutforjacob that made a comment about how Renesmee is unrelatable as a character- that she's just kind of there, as this perfect little being. She kind of reminds me of the One Ring in LotR- we know it's magical, we know that if it fell into the wrong hands it would spell doom for all, but we don't really know just what the heck it does, specifically. And yet an entire story ends up revolving around it.

I also agree with how quickly Jacob went from Bella to Renesmee without so much as a "Huh?" What seems funny to me is, we spend the majority of the time post-birth being told that Renesmee's this wonderful, unique little being (who could probably sprout fairy wings at any given moment and no one would bat an eyelash), and then suddenly at the end we're being told "Oh no- she's not unique. It's happened before," like that would make everything all right.
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