Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

[VirginiaMay]

Umm.. Hi.

I have no idea how I missed seeing this thread before now, but I did. You are having some interesting and intense conversations here, so for now I will just say "hello" until I get acclimated. I hope to converse with some of you soon.

Ginnie

[December]

Welcome to TUGMP, VirginiaMay! Delighted to have you join us.

Readers who enjoyed TUGMP also enjoyed....the Explorations thread, and its offshoot:"Explorations" of Bree's Novella. (*grin*)

There's a lot of material there, though. So you might as well start here, and get round to those other conversations when and if you feel in the mood. One thing: you should feel free to return to any subject discussed earlier on this thread, or those two others. No topic is ever dead on a serious discussion thread -- just resting....

[SwanCullen]

Forgive me if this has already been talked about, but what of Esme's desire to love? Do you think she is in some way trying to make up for the child she has lost?

MOD EDIT: I think this question belongs on the Esme Cullen thread. Maybe you could repost it there? Thanks.

[GrayceM]

Grayce, Rings, Andy -- thank you.

I don't know why this didn't register more strongly on me when I read it. Clearly I need to ignore my inner resistance and go back and read this chapter properly.

I think you probably had the same problem I did during my first read December. I thought...great...a whole section that has nothing to do with the story I want to read about so I'm skimming...I have read the books several times now and since I have not exactly picked a "team" I'm finding it easier to look at all the other characters. I find Jasper's character very interesting. And I think that all of the characters could be expanded on to some extent. Focusing on Carlisle and Charlie next...

I have a theory to run by you guys about Bella's hallucinations/subconscious pulling her towards Edward, but I'll post it later...bedtime for me.

[GrayceM]

If I'm going to read these again...I think I'd like to add a slightly different subject/theory and see what the rest of you think. I'm one of those people that believe everything happens how it is supposed to happen. The sequences that bring about a specific outcome have a lot of factors, but usually, the end result is that this is what was supposed to happen.

I have thought about this since the first time reading NM. Bella came up with two theories for her hallucinations, I came up with a third. While I was reading NM, I was convinced that somehow, Edward had found a way to link himself to her so that he would always be there. That the voice was real and I am not sure that I have entirely given up on the possibility...
But here's my actual theory. Almost every one of Bella's hallucinations eventually lead her back to Edward. Ithink her subconscious mind knew what would have to happen for Edward to be in her life again.

Think about this...
The first being outside the theater with Jessica, but that leads her to try to cause them. Bella has the idea of the motorcycles ultimately to break her side of the promise but in addition she finds out that this can cause other hallucinations. At least until she gets too good. The motorcycles lead her to be close to Jacob. Had she not been with Jacob, Alice would have seen all this stuff happening to her much earlier and would have known that leaving did nothing to help her. Hearing Edward's voice to warn her that she is in danger with Laurent and when Jacob is upset, before she knows why that is dangerous...Her decision to cliff dive without Jacob is why Alice sees her. Alice coming back leads to Edward believing she is dead and that results in having to go to Italy as she thinks just to save him, but we know it was to reunite them because it shows Edward the lengths that she would go to for him, so there is no more doubt on his side about her feelings.
Do you think Stephenie designed it this way or am I seeing signs that no one else does?

[Twilight<3]

Do you think Stephenie designed it this way or am I seeing signs that no one else does?

It's possible that Stephenie designed it that way but I don't think it's likely. If we look at the way Stephenie designed Alice's visions, I would say she believes in free will. This is because the her visions show the future isn't determined. It changes as people's decisions change. So, given that, I would say Bella chose (unconsciously) to create these hallucinations of Edward to relieve her of her pain. It wasn't fate or predetermination or the like that brought the hallucinations to Bella. She chose her fate.

[GrayceM]

Maybe I'm at an advantage then...having known before reading the first book that there were 4 in the series, I guess I didn't take the break up and the whole of New Moon as seriously. Like I knew that it wasn't really over because it wasn't an ending to the story.
I can see how it would have simply gotten her out of the pain of loss had I not know that this was a temporary situation. Having looked at it as temporary, it's as though every decision she makes whether by grand design, fate or whatever you call it, put her a step closer to the events bringing Edward back into her life.

Having had my future changed drastically at one point in my life, I can see how every decision or act puts you on a path to that future. By desiring a different outcome, you choose a different path to get there. After choosing a different path, you figure out what parts of your life must be different to get to that path. Sometimes, those choices are not made consciously but because this is how it is "supposed" to be.

[andypalmer]

Do you think Stephenie designed it this way or am I seeing signs that no one else does?

It's possible that Stephenie designed it that way but I don't think it's likely. If we look at the way Stephenie designed Alice's visions, I would say she believes in free will. This is because the her visions show the future isn't determined. It changes as people's decisions change. So, given that, I would say Bella chose (unconsciously) to create these hallucinations of Edward to relieve her of her pain. It wasn't fate or predetermination or the like that brought the hallucinations to Bella. She chose her fate.

I'm 99.9% confident that Stephenie is a very strong believer in free will.

[Twilight<3]

Maybe I'm at an advantage then...having known before reading the first book that there were 4 in the series, I guess I didn't take the break up and the whole of New Moon as seriously. Like I knew that it wasn't really over because it wasn't an ending to the story.
I can see how it would have simply gotten her out of the pain of loss had I not know that this was a temporary situation. Having looked at it as temporary, it's as though every decision she makes whether by grand design, fate or whatever you call it, put her a step closer to the events bringing Edward back into her life.

Well, if you look at it that way, that there were four books in the saga, then of course you could say it's fate. That this character is on a set line of a predetermined life created by Stephenie Meyer. However, if you actually look at it as its own world, not as a world created by Stephenie Meyer, then it would be free will. If there were fate in this book, Alice's visions would remain constant. Nothing would change because it would all be "fate," not a future created by our own decisions and actions. Alice's visions do change to people's different decisions, though, which is proof each and every character in the books have free will.

And then, as andypalmer said, Stephenie Meyer is a strong believer in free will.

[GrayceM]

I was only looking at the choices Bella made in New Moon, not at Alice's visions. I don't see her visions as being constant because there are too many variables. If your looking at Alice's visions; at the beginning of Midnight Sun she sees several possible outcomes to Edward's reaction to Bella. After he saves her in the parking lot of the school, she sees other possible futures. Which vision solidifies depends on whether Jasper decides not to kill Bella and whether Edward decides not to leave again. At the end of New Moon Bella herself points out that Alice could decide to change her today and change her mind tomorrow. So she sees several futures for Bella but the point is that she sees multiple futures. Her visions are only as constant as the person's mind. Alice could see the end result of each small decision if she looks far enough, like playing Chess.

Each decision we make and each of our actions determine where we will go, who we will meed, what will happen to us, etc., but I don't see that as having our free will taken away only that the outcome is predetermined because of the our decision or action, not in spite of it. The phrase "Hindsight is 20/20" is specific to this. You can theorize what you think may have happened had you chosen not to get out of bed this morning, but you can't say for certain, because you did get out of bed. (Well, maybe not all of you, but you understand that concept ) You had the free will to choose whether or not to get out of bed...Alice's vision being subjective doesn't mean that the outcome isn't predetermined.

It's just my way of thinking...I didn't say it was right or even sane.