Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Postby MRK » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:33 pm

SparklingDiamond wrote:That's a really interesting observation, December.

Unfortunately, I think one of the reason's that we don't get much on Rosalie, or the fact that she isn't given a lot of credit has to do with the reader's perceptions of characters that you were speaking of in your post. Many reader's seem to have zoned in on her less than perfect characteristics, shallowness being the main one here. But why? Because she's beautiful and she knows it? Is this some kind of crime? Sometimes it bothers me that when women take pride in their appearance, they become shallow, as if this is all that makes up a character.

I think you've brought up a really strong point that her deeper qualities are overlooked. Even in BD, I feel like people suspected her of foul intentions when she was being so watchful over the pregnant Bella. Readers, even Edward at times, assumed that she cared nothing for Bella, but only wanted the baby for herself. Yet, what evidence was there of this in the story? She really gets a bad rep.


Rose was shallow....she was jealous of every woman that came near Edward until she realized he would want noone...then when Bella came....she was hateful. She was vain, always preening in the mirror...It is possible to be beautiful and know it, but not obsess over it. With Rose, I think she was like that because it was the only thing about her that anyone gave her any credit for. The only thing she could be sure of about herself.
Edward could read her thoughts, and there are multiple passages where he only hears her being shallow.
I do agree she is so misunderstood, but I don't think she even understands herself...almost like shes living down to low expectations...

Sorry Shadownin I cross-posted with you but I just wanted to say...I think she helped Bella because she knew what Bella would be missing out on...and since she longed for a baby so badly herself...I don't think she could not help Bella.
now if Bella had died during childbirth, I don't think she would have been too upset when Edward followed and left her to raise little nessie lol... *Ducks*
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Postby SparklingDiamond » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:42 pm

Edward could read her thoughts, and there are multiple passages where he only hears her being shallow.


Yes, but this is all we get to see. Do we know this is all there is? Plus, he's a man, and well... he's Edward. Edward also thought just about every other human besides Bella and Angela were shallow as well.

I completely agree that Edward and Rose are very similar characters. So, why is it that the very women who despise Rose, love Edward for the very same characteristics?
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Postby ShadowNIN » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:48 pm

SparklingDiamond wrote:I completely agree that Edward and Rose are very similar characters. So, why is it that the very women who despise Rose, love Edward for the very same characteristics?


Because we saw Edward in depth as a character and not Rose. If we just got to see Edward through Rose's eyes, imagine what he would look like to us! Imagine how she would describe him and his actions!
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Postby MRK » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:58 pm

SparklingDiamond wrote:
Edward could read her thoughts, and there are multiple passages where he only hears her being shallow.


Yes, but this is all we get to see. Do we know this is all there is? Plus, he's a man, and well... he's Edward. Edward also thought just about every other human besides Bella and Angela were shallow as well.

I completely agree that Edward and Rose are very similar characters. So, why is it that the very women who despise Rose, love Edward for the very same characteristics?

they share some characteristics....Edward is self loathing....thats endearing lol....
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Postby Ouisa » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:02 pm

I'm going to try to answer SD's question even though I'm sick and less than articulate.

SparklingDiamond wrote:I completely agree that Edward and Rose are very similar characters. So, why is it that the very women who despise Rose, love Edward for the very same characteristics?


Not to beat the feminism/antifeminism dead horse here but, I think we as a society in general value controlling/protective/arrogant/fill in your adjective here behavior in males. Edward is these things and we find it desirable. Similar behaviors in a woman are often viewed as less desirable. Society expects women *should* be mild/meek/pleasant/kind/compassionate/fill in your adjectives here. Women who break from this norm are often labeled as a less than kind term that is often applied to Rose by this fandom.

Note, I am not saying one behavior or perception is morally correct or not or that such prescriptive expectations are realistic or fair to apply to the genders. But rather just making an observation of society as I see it.

ETA: I find self loathing one of Edward's least endearing traits.
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Postby edward4ever » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:17 pm

For those of you wondering about Rosalie's other personalty traits besides being extraordinarily shallow, have I got a gift for you!!! :D Check out the EXTRAS section of New Moon on SM's website under the Twilight Series tab.

The one titled Rosalie's News is Edward's side of the phone call between him and Rosalie when she called to tell him Bella was dead. :o :cry:
The one titled Miscalculation is from Rose's point of view and what happened right after that fateful phone call. :o

Both are AWESOME and answered many questions: What did Edward do when he left Bella?; How was he feeling?; What did Rose say to Edward?; Did she care that she hurt him?; Does Rose only think of herself all the time, night and day? (mostly, yes! :evil: that is my biased opinion though, I don't like her.)
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Postby MRK » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:24 pm

I actually like Rose...but, I think she is very insecure and it shows. I think a lot of readers were intimidated by Rose...as we often are when confronted with beautiful women. She uses it to her advantage because she is so insecure...it's really her only weapon to protect herself emotionally I think...her self esteem.
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Postby December » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:36 am

Just a reminder everyone, that we should try not to stray too far from the purpose of this thread which is discussing general philosophical issues -- not straight-up character discussion. Of course it's not always a clear-cut distinction, because we're interested in these issues as they affect the characters -- or are illustrated by them -- and not just in the abstract. We just need to try and stay mindful of where we're taking the conversation.

Maybe it's time for a new question. If anyone has a philosophical issue they're burning to discuss, maybe they could PM me? Or if you want to pick up on something that was raised in an earlier post, we can just carry on. If I don't hear from anyone, I have a few possible topics up my sleeve, and I'll start us off with a new question tomorrow! Please though -- if you have a new question you'd like to propose, PM me and don't just post it!
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Postby Esme echo » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:01 pm

I'm still thinking about Rosalie's actions and motivations. Part of her dislike for Bella was that she disagreed with the choices Bella was making. She told Bella her story in hopes of convincing Bella to change her mind about becoming a vampire. I'm interested in discussing:

When is it morally imperative--if ever--to try to change someone's mind about a course they are pursuing that you disagree with?

A related question: How far is it appropriate to push your opinion onto another person if you feel their personal decisions are self-destructive?
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Re: Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings

Postby MRK » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:11 pm

When is it morally imperative--if ever--to try to change someone's mind about a course they are pursuing that you disagree with?
Ok. This may get rather sticky...but the first thing that popped into my head is homosexuality. I know certain people, who feel morally obligated to let certain other people know that a certain higher power may throw them into the pits of hell if they do not change their ways per a certain book. Not saying I agree with it...I just know they feel morally obligated to 'clue them in'
*please don't be nasty at ME...I'm just sayin*
Now it goes with abortions and such too...some people feel that if they do not speak up...they are as responsible as the person doing it.

How far is it appropriate to push your opinion onto another person if you feel their personal decisions are self-destructive?
Ugh...hard one...my brother died of a drug overdose...so, I would like to say, push them as far as it takes to save them...however it doesnt work like that. You can talk to them, but in the end...it's up to them. FREE WILL.
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