Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby RebeccaCullen » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:03 am

roguetwilightfan wrote:Going out on a limb here I'm sure, but in my personal opinion the whole Bella-Edward-Jacob triangle thing was very irritating.


Nope, not the only one who thought the "triangle" was irritating. You can join the small minority I've seen posting here that didn't like it.

roguetwilightfan wrote:I understand that a lot of people like to think that Bella had a deep love for both Edward and Jacob and that she was truly torn about not wanting to hurt either of them, but in reading the books I literally cringed every time the subject of not wanting to hurt jacob came up. What about Edward? Didn't Bella have the best of both worlds?


Some would say that Bella was literally SM's puppet in EC. I, too, cringed every time Bella worried about Jacob's well being, especially in BD when she was getting ready to marry Edward. Bella's concern should have been working on her relationship with Edward and trying to find balance between him and her human friends until she graduated.


roguetwilightfan wrote:In the real world, I can't imagine too many guys out there who would put up with Bella's type of behavior. It's easy to say that if you love someone you will understand, but if you love someone would you put them in the position that Bella constantly put Edward in? I think that Edward should have put his foot down and forced Bella to choose between him and Jacob. She would have gotten over it and Edward would not have seemed like such a wimp.


You aren't the only one that I've talked to online about a real man not putting up with Bella's indecision. I think it all goes back to Stephenie Meyer wanting Bella to have both Edward and Jacob after she changed the middle of the story to expand on the wolf pack and keep Bella in high school. Jacob woulda been more tolerable if he had stayed in the friend zone but clearly SM couldn't or wouldn't have that, Jacob had to be a romantic interest even though SM knew she was going to have Bella marry Edward and have a child with him from the very beginning when she was looking for a publisher.

Considering that Edward and Jacob were mortal enemies should have been enough for Bella to make her choice between the two of them. When Jacob refused to talk to her after Edward's return, Bella should have stopped trying to contact him because he knew she and Edward were in love. I absolutely loathed the way that Charlie forced Bella into trying to maintain a friendship with a boy that refused to accept that she was a big girl and could make her own choices.
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Tornado » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:31 am

I think it comes back to Edward's opinion of himself. It takes a lot for him to believe that he deserves Bella. This is why he didn't try to push her as much as a normal guy might have. He is still reluctant to take her life away from her, as he believes vampirism will do, and he still believes in Eclipse that she will not be happy as a vampire.

It's not until the end of Eclipse that he starts to think her way is the right way, because he's starting to think her instincts about their relationship (or perhaps her faith is a better word) might be right. This belief is hindered a bit when she gets pregnant in BD, but at the end of the books, he's finally able to be optimistic and hopeful. But his reactions in Eclipse seem fairly typical of what we learned of him in the first two books, because he was always leaning too far in one direction or another, based on his jealousy or his self-hatred/selflessness. I don't think he did anything that wasn't in line with his character.
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Emmettroselover » Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:10 pm

You are definitely not the only one who was over the love triangle a while ago and especially how Summit has marketed it.
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Chernaudi » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:42 pm

We do have to remember that Jacob became a major character and a love interest to Bella though New Moon and Eclipse--books that were never originally intended to be written.

The original sequel to Twilight was Forever Dawn, where Bella graduates from school, marries Edward, they have Renesmee, Bella becomes a vampire, the Volturi questions/confronts the Cullens about Nessie, Victoria (instead of Irina) gets killed by the wolves (instead of the Volturi), Bella scares the Volturi off, and the end.

Forever Dawn was basically Breaking Dawn verbatim except for Victoria replacing Irina and Jacob played only a secondary role. But then Steph fell in love with Jacob (like most of her characters) and felt that he was just too good to throw to the sidelines. Which was fine, and demonstrates that each character has their flaws--Bella either not knowing what she wants or not knowing how to express it without stepping on someone's toes, Edward being needy and afraid of Bella's mortality, and Jacob not knowing when to give up the ghost between him and Bella as lovers. However, I do think that Steph went a bit too far with that and should've let the "love triangle" die with dignity in Eclipse, or even before hand. Like when Jacob stopped returning Bella's calls early in EC, and Charlie should've accepted that his daughter was legally an adult and could make decisions for herself and push aside his prejudice/bias against Edward. To me, it just seems a bit too much like an excuse to trump up excitement to get people to read Eclipse, which I'm fairly sure it would've done just as well with Jacob accepting Bella as a "friend" as opposed to someone he wished could be his "girlfriend", covering the romance between Bella and Edward, their engagement, and Victoria trying to kill off Bella.

Of course, as book canon, though, I can sort of tolerate that, but Summit really blew it out of proportion with their marketing for New Moon and Eclipse... I just wonder how they'd market Breaking Dawn?
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby RebeccaCullen » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:10 pm

When I initially read the books, I didn't care much for Jacob in NM and was a little put off by his behavior in EC. Earlier in the year after not reading the books for like over a year I came to conculde that Jacob was a good friend to Bella in NM and his actions in EC came out of left field when he started acting like Bella was in love with him and didn't know it. Had he stayed in the friend zone would have been better, IMO.


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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby corona » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:07 pm

Chernaudi wrote:But then Steph fell in love with Jacob (like most of her characters) and felt that he was just too good to throw to the sidelines. Which was fine, and demonstrates that each character has their flaws--Bella either not knowing what she wants or not knowing how to express it without stepping on someone's toes, Edward being needy and afraid of Bella's mortality, and Jacob not knowing when to give up the ghost between him and Bella as lovers. However, I do think that Steph went a bit too far with that and should've let the "love triangle" die with dignity in Eclipse, or even before hand. Like when Jacob stopped returning Bella's calls early in EC, and Charlie should've accepted that his daughter was legally an adult and could make decisions for herself and push aside his prejudice/bias against Edward. To me, it just seems a bit too much like an excuse to trump up excitement to get people to read Eclipse, which I'm fairly sure it would've done just as well with Jacob accepting Bella as a "friend" as opposed to someone he wished could be his "girlfriend", covering the romance between Bella and Edward, their engagement, and Victoria trying to kill off Bella.


I totally agree, and I always had a problem with the resolution in EC.

The setup was in the Paris chapter of NM, where Bella considers putting a claim on Jacob as her best option, now that she is finally dealing with a future that doesn't include Edward.

Edward returns, and Bella inexplicably seems to forget that her relationship with Jacob might have developed beyond friendship. She even denies that Edward has any reason to be jealous in the Switzerland chapter of EC (and that is the critical chapter, where she shuts down any conversation concerning her relationship with Jacob).

Now, that doesn't seem to be a lack of self-knowledge, as SM puts it, but a complete avoidance of the subject.

We do get an explanation of what happened from Edward in his "stitches" speech, but we never really get an explanation from Bella about why that happened. There's talk about magnets and making mistakes and a lot of crying, but no explanation. I think the reason is that there really isn't a good explanation. Whatever reasons SM had for personally doing the love triangle, and they may have been very good reasons, the actual mechanics of having Bella shut out any introspection were a little wonky. She is good at suppressing bad things, but only after she has dealt with them. We're talking about such a complete suppression that discovering that she loves Jacob during TGDS completely blindsides her. That always smacked of contrivance to me.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Chernaudi » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:48 pm

That's why I think that the love triangle was overused. I think it would've been nice if Bella and/or Edward had it in them to tell Jacob that it's over. I don't mean that Bella or even Edward had to be vindictive about it, but they should've been firm. But I think that Bella was too worried about hurting Jacob, which is what happened anyways.

That's sort of her lack of self knowledge, as Stephanie puts it, while I figure it to be more of Bella not wanting to cause offense and that led to her being indecisive. Lack of self knowledge, maybe, but I'd characterize that more as indecisiveness. I do think that Bella knew what she wanted, but either didn't know how to express it, or wanted to have both Edward and Jacob in her life.

We can blame all kinds of things on this from a canon stand point, as each played their part in this--Edward leaving Bella, Jacob not realizing that a romance between him and Bella was over, and Bella for not being decisive or firm enough with her decision making.

From a RL stand point, I don't know why Stephanie continued with the love triangle aside from the fact that she didn't want Jacob forced to the sidelines, and though that it would add a suspense element, which Eclipse should've had plenty of without that "help".
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Tornado » Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:15 pm

Chernaudi wrote:I do think that Bella knew what she wanted, but either didn't know how to express it, or wanted to have both Edward and Jacob in her life.


I think this was the big problem. She did love Jacob, but didn't recognise it as love because it wasn't what she'd experienced with Edward. So she kept wanting Jake around, without realising the real reason for it. Lack of self knowledge (she is only 18 at this point) is probably the real reason for her behaviour in Eclipse.

In New Moon I thought that Jacob and Bella were falling in love. All the signs were there. I tried to categorise it as just a friendship thing, but the real reason I did that was that I didn't want Jacob to have a legitimate claim on Bella. But there is every sign of love between them in New Moon. It's a rebound love, sure, but it's still love, and enough to confuse Bella as she tries to deal with her feelings for Jake when Edward comes back.

In Eclipse I found Jacob annoying, but laughed at his behaviour up until Bella acknowledged that she loved him. I couldn't understand how she could still love him (I could understand why she had) in the face of how bad his behaviour had become. I guess it's another one of those "love is blind" things. She clearly understood his reasons for behaving that way, or simply refused to acknowledge his bad behaviour, and overlooked it, much the same as she did with Edward leaving, although at least Edward was man enough to admit he had been wrong and apologise, whereas Jake just kept being arrogant and self righteous.

Of course, then in BD, with the pregnancy and the imprinting, there has to be a kind of "draw" between them because of Renesmee. In Forever Dawn, Jake wasn't around during the pregnancy, so this draw wasn't experienced. But knowing that was where it was going, and the nature of imprinting, SM had no choice, since Jacob was around, but to play it out the way it went. It didn't come across brilliantly, though.

I have hope that Summit will realise just how touchy this area is. They certainly don't seem to be pushing the imprinting angle in the media, so hopefully they are trying to keep it low profile. I hope this means it will be low profile (as much as possible, anyway) in the movie.
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Emmettroselover » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:31 pm

I actually liked Jacob in New Moon. It was in Eclipse and how much he got away with that annoyed me. I believe that characters should have consequences for their actions and most of the characters did, but Jacob got away with a lot of stuff and got a pass because of Bella's feelings for him and her guilt over how much she needed him when Edward was gone. She was just fine with reminding Edward of his flaws and calling him out, but when it came to Jacob it was like she could not stay mad. Why was that? It was just hard to understand how Jacob could give her gifts and treat her a certain way, but the love of her life could not. Even with the explanation of Bella feeling inferior to Edward, it still did not sit well with me. It was really annoying and at times made her seem more ungrateful than embarrassed by the attention.

I agree that it seemed more like it was all just taken too far. I usually enjoy love triangles, but this is the first one that annoyed me so much. It is not just because I am Team Edward. It was because once Jacob started being manipulative and trying every dirty trick in the book, Bella still would take him back at the expense of Edward even if she did not do it on purpose. I understood that Jacob did a lot for her, but at what point does that stop being used as an excuse? What was she supposed to give him? Jacob was not going to be satisfied or take no for an answer.....he proved that. That was who Jacob had become, bitter, temperamental, and manipulative. I loved Bella's Jacob, but not the character he evolved into and it would have been nice if the triangle was actually ended in Eclipse instead of still lingering. Blaming the imprinting just was not enough for me because even once Renesmee was out, Bella still let Jacob get away with stuff because he was Jacob.

Despite all their flaws, Edward and Bella had character development. Jacob lacked a lot IMO and I wanted the triangle to be buried once she was married. When he showed up at their reception and got angry, I was in disbelief. Not only did it ruin the moment, but I remember thinking could the guy not take a hint? She was married and he is furious because she is going to make love to her husband? Things like that really pushed it over the top for me. Instead of letting him bow out gracefully and actually look like the kind human being he was in Twilight and New Moon, SM continued on with the triangle long after Bella and Edward were married. Jacob still hovered around and that just irked me. Imprinting or not, it was still too much for me at times. Being in Jacob's POV did not help anything. His thoughts were of a married, pregnant woman. Saying that those thoughts or the vulgar ones that came before that in Eclipse were related to his draw to Renesmee just did not fly with me. After everything he did to break them up and all his thoughts about Bella, her body, etc in BD while she was pregnant, I think it was a bit of a leap to expect the reader to accept the imprinting and that his behavior was Renesmee's fault.

I think the love triangle was overdone in the books because SM fell in love with Jacob and Summit took that triangle and ran with it. Like Tornado, I do hope they realize how touchy of a subject it could be and try to do it tastefully.
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Re: Love Triangle-Bella, Edward, Jacob

Postby Tornado » Mon Aug 29, 2011 9:40 pm

Emmettroselover wrote:I actually liked Jacob in New Moon.


So did I. I felt a little sorry for him, actually, because Bella was using him. And I got that he was going through something horrible, and of course he would blame the Cullens for it. Why wouldn't he? They were the ones who triggered this change. It seemed fair enough to me.

Emmettroselover wrote:Despite all their flaws, Edward and Bella had character development. Jacob lacked a lot


Absolutely. I hope this will be addressed ... someday!

Emmettroselover wrote:When he showed up at their reception and got angry, I was in disbelief. Not only did it ruin the moment, but I remember thinking could the guy not take a hint? She was married and he is furious because she is going to make love to her husband?


That might be true if this was a normal relationship, but it was a bit different in this case. Even Edward was worried about it. He knew that his strength alone meant that it was entirely possible he could kill Bella if he made love to her. Jacob knew that too. I think he was resigned to her having sex with him, as much as he didn't want it to be, but that was after she had become a vampire. Why turn up at the wedding and play nice at the start if he's coming just because he's angry about her having sex with him at all? He could have come just to trash the wedding if that was it. It was the thought of her doing it before she was a vampire that pushed him over the edge. He, of course, has no faith or trust in Edward, so naturally does not believe that he will be able to (or even want to) control himself enough to keep Bella safe. So there are more reasons than just jealousy at this point. He's worried that her choice will kill her in the literal sense, even before she gets to the vampire transformation!

Emmettroselover wrote:Being in Jacob's POV did not help anything.


Yes, that was enormously difficult for me, too. The whole situation was hard enough to deal with without having to see it through Jacob's biased, resentful, bitter eyes.
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