Violet Sunlight wrote:Before NM, IMO, I think Carlisle is not (if I may use your word) "adverse" to changing dying people. In the car ride, after the meadow scene in TW Bella says, “So you must be dying, then, to become…” then Edward (underline is mine) says, “No, that’s just Carlisle. He would never do that to someone who had another choice.” Now, I do understand that he is referring to an innocent bystander, of sorts, not exactly one who is volunteering to be a vampire like Bella, but the fact is Bella did have a choice and though Bella freely chose to become a vampire the CHOICE is still there.
Yes, but it was a choice that she made, and she and the Cullens were happy with that choice. That's why they all agreed she should be changed without being on her deathbed. Just because they didn't vote on it until the end of NM doesn't mean that they didn't think it wouldn't happen that way. They voted at that point only because Bella asked them to, because the situation with the Volturi had driven her to take that action, because Edward was still stubbornly refusing to consider changing her.
I don't think they necessarily formed any opinions on how Bella would or would not be changed when Alice first told them about her vision. However, I think they would have thought about it a lot over the following days and weeks, and I believe that most of them would have come to the conclusion that a dying circumstance was unlikely, and not the best scenario when all factors were considered. After all, they all know perfectly well someone doesn't have to be dying to be changed, even if that was the way Carlisle operated up until that stage, and waiting until she is on her deathbed is a risky thing to do.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Thirdly and moreover, as I mentioned before, IMO, from Alice’s vision the family could not have foreknew that Bella would be the FIRST to willingly want to be a yellow-eyed vampire, therefore, IMO, they could not jump to the conclusion that she was changed without an imminent death circumstance as they were (Jasper excluded and to some degree Alice too, being that she still had no knowledge of her human life at this point), therefore, they would have assumed that she was changed due to an imminent death circumstance. Even if Alice’s vision showed that Bella was happy as human around yellow-eyed vampires or was happy to be a yellow-eyed vampire as Emmett is (which I can’t remember right now if she was or wasn’t happy as a vampire in the vision), IMO, that still would not have been an indicator that Bella was changed while being a healthy human and because she chose it. However, I do believe the family was happy and saddened and incredulous at the same time that a HEA, odd as it may be, was in the horizon for Edward, though the path seemed painful, emotionally and physically. When I say painful, I mean, for Edward he has to live with the “singer” pain for a while and Bella has to live with the fact that she knows he is in pain, and of course, because Edward and Bella will have to suffer not only Bella’s imminent death circumstance but her painful transformation as I said before.
Let's look at the situation. They've just found out that their son (and brother) is falling in love with a human. Alice tells them that he will either kill her himself, or she will become a vampire, like them. Alice makes it clear that Bella's death would have a profound affect on Edward, so the idea that she would die would be a bad thing, not only for her, but for Edward. Also, since Alice's vision are the result of choices, it would be logical for them to at least consider that Bella had chosen the life herself or, at the very least, was attracted enough to Edward to risk her life to associate with him, which suggests that she loves him strongly as well.
As a result, it would seem more logical to assume that Bella found out about the vampire life and wanted to join it. After all, if she and Edward were in love, would they wait for her to be hit by a car, like she was in the parking lot at the school, before she was changed? That would be incredibly risky, and not just because they might not be quick enough to change her, but because of risk of exposure. Who would do it in that situation? It would have to be Carlisle, at that stage, because everyone would doubt Edward would have the control to do it himself, and no one else would be game enough to try, as they've never done it before. So they've got to hope, if Bella is hanging to life by a thread, that she lives long enough to get to Carlisle in order for him to change her, which he would also have to do where there were no witnesses (and modern day hospitals have a lot more security, even for dead bodies, then they did back in the early 20th century), and no one realising where she'd gone. It seems a lot more risky than changing her by her choice. She was likely to die before she got to Carlisle, especially with Bella's luck, which they had all already experienced that very day in the school parking lot.
Or maybe they'd assume that Edward would wait until she was dying of natural causes. That wouldn't be much good for either of them, really. Then she might die when she was sixty, and then they change her, and what kind of a relationship would she and Edward have then, when she would have changed over the course of time, as a normal human would, when he had not? As Bella rightly realised, it would make their relationship difficult. So I think it is more than likely that, if the Cullens were considering how Bella would be changed as a result of Alice's vision, it would most likely be by her choice. They are aware that she will probably find out what they are. As Emmett says, "It's bound to happen[i.e. her finding out about them], with what Alice sees coming." So I think that they would also realise that her change would be at her consent, not because she's on her deathbed. It wouldn't make sense to hang around and wait for that, and the risks involved if they left it to when her life was in danger are enormous, and it would have to be at least a possibility that she wouldn't survive in those circumstances.So it seems logical to me that some of them, Alice and Emmett at the very least, would have thought soon after that meeting that she became a vampire voluntarily to be with Edward. Edward thinks so himself. He believes that Alice's vision means he forces Bella into this life by making Carlisle change her. There is no mention that he thinks this will be caused by her being on her deathbed, so I don't think he considered that, and I think it's likely at least some of the others were thinking along similar lines soon after Alice told them her vision.
Violet Sunlight wrote:Fourthly, while I agree that Carlisle felt something special for dying Edward, that was not reason enough for Carlisle to change him. It was only when Edward’s mother, somewhat, consented did Carlisle act.
So that would indicate he might be willing to act with consent in other circumstances.
Violet Sunlight wrote: Further, wasn’t the conversation Bella and Carlisle had in the beginning of NM, while stitching her up after Jasper’s attack, Carlisle denying healthy-Bella’s request to be changed into a vampire?
I think he was saying that she had to sort it out with Edward. He knew Edward was not in favour of the idea, and so didn't want to go against his son's wishes at that time. It wouldn't have been great for Edward and Bella's relationship, nor Carlisle's relationship with Edward, if he did it when Edward was so against it. Of course, the events of NM changed that, and Carlisle was willing to change her anyway, as he realised that, if his son was so hellbent on killing himself when Bella died, he couldn't just stand around and let that happen. I think it likely that he thought Edward would give in at some point and agree that Bella should be changed. I think Alice also thought this, but seeing Edward's stubbornness, even in the face of the Volturi's involvement, was the last straw for Carlisle.
Violet Sunlight wrote: IMO, the dying circumstance element is what is always needed for Carlisle to act, not love.
If that was the case, he never would have agreed to change her at the end of NM, because there was no imminent dying circumstance. Edward was pretty sure that the Volturi wouldn't be able to find Bella if he hid her, and, given the silence of Bella's mind, this is at least a possibility. If Carlisle was that set against changing anyone who wasn't dying, he would have insisted Bella wait until there was no other possibility. No, I believe Carlisle's hesitation at the beginning of NM is because he is waiting for his son to make the decision, not because he wants Bella bled out and dying in front of him before he dares to bite her.
Violet Sunlight wrote: Lastly, regarding Edward’s comment in MS draft, (by the way, thanks for pointing that it was MS draft, I went back to my last post and fixed the invisible ink on that) while I somewhat agree with what you said, I think that Edward’s comment expresses how precious and valuable human life is. Which is why I brought it up, being that Carlisle, and the family, share this view with Edward and would thereby, IMO, not hold the view that changing healthy-human-Bella even if she would have chosen to be changed would be something they would consider on the day of the car accident to consequently, have her possibly ponder on the same feelings they all share of wanting to be human if they could but because of their present circumstances would not, even if they could. Rosalie excluded because as you mentioned before we know she would.
But Carlisle's views are a little different from Edward's as SM has pointed out herself on this site. He doesn't view Bella's change as being as tragic as Edward thinks, because he has faith. That's why he conceded to change anyone into a vampire at all. But Edward leaves because he believes human death is preferable to vampire life. If Carlisle felt that way, he wouldn't have changed anyone at all. But Edward can't accept that the life he lives is good for anyone he loves, regardless of the circumstance that leads them to it. That's why he breaks Bella's heart, to save her from a fate worse than death. As SM put it on her website (I think!), Edward knew he couldn't stand around and watch her die, so he left before biting her became a necessity, ensuring that she would die a natural death as a human, rather than end up as a vampire at all.