Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:03 pm

You've raised some very interesting points, Corona.

With the other Cullens, it's difficult to tell exactly how they feel. I think they all struggle with the vampiric life, but I think they know that it's a fight that can be won, and this is why I think it's likely most of them have faith that Bella will win the fight. I'm not sure too many of them would think that the idea of Bella losing her soul was as big a deal as Carlisle and Edward did, which could explain why they don't agree with what Carlisle thinks, but aren't saying that Bella should stay away from Edward to preserve her soul. In fact, the only Cullen who really seems to think Bella should not become a vampire because of her soul is Edward. The others may have other reasons for thinking it's not ideal (like Rosalie), but I'm not sure that the soul idea comes into play for many of them. In fact, Carlisle's conversation with Bella at the beginning of NM may be his attempt to raise the subject with her so that she can see that it is an issue, as he knows Edward will not discuss this with her. This may actually be an example of him circumventing Edward earlier than the vote at the end of the novel. He knows Edward won't talk to Bella about his real issues, so he decides to do it for him.

I'm not sure "goading" is the right word for Carlisle's behaviour at the end. More just the realisation that it has to happen, for so many different reasons, and there's no point mucking around anymore. A more definite example of "circumventing", perhaps. Also, I think Carlisle realises that Rosalie and Bella's situations are different. Carlisle knows that if Rosalie had had the choice, she would have said no. But Bella does have a choice, and has chosen to become a vampire. So he has no hesitation at that stage.
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:46 pm

Tornado wrote:In fact, Carlisle's conversation with Bella at the beginning of NM may be his attempt to raise the subject with her so that she can see that it is an issue, as he knows Edward will not discuss this with her. This may actually be an example of him circumventing Edward earlier than the vote at the end of the novel. He knows Edward won't talk to Bella about his real issues, so he decides to do it for him.


Which sets Bella up for the big lie, doesn't it? Good point. Edward never discusses this with her until much later, she needed to hear it from his own lips so she could understand just how seriously he took the matter. Hearing it first from Carlisle helped, but when she brings it up in the forest Edward shuts her down.

You are probably right about Carlisle not goading Edward, but he confirms he can do it so confidently (sure, there would be no problem with me, piece of cake) and this is Edward's woman we're talking about here. Just wondering. I would think Edward might get a little territorial there. It's just something I think of when reading that section, wondering what Edward thought about Carlisle giving Bella some love bites and then licking her clean as a good doctor should.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Postby Violet Sunlight » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:38 pm

Tornado ~
Tornado wrote: As regards imminent death circumstances and everything else, we've been over it before. We will agree to disagree, then.

I respectfully agree.

Regarding Alice’s NM vision, I think you are right about the dual future appearing on the plane. However, I also think when Alice made her promise to Bella, the vampire-Bella vision was back on. In order for Alice to keep her promise, that meant that their relationship, hence contact, was also back on and potentially putting Bella back in the Cullen circle. Which meant that if Alice was incapable of administering the change at whatever time that would have been, then Carlisle could have been the backup. Especially, being that Bella was going to keep insisting to be changed more than ever now. Remember, Bella was bold enough to ask Carlisle in the beginning of NM for the change, though she already knew his standards on changing people. In addition, Bella was so happy with Alice’s promise, she said, “But at least I had something to hope for if we did”. Meaning if she did survive Volterra, she knew she was going to be a vampire. That's why when Edward was laying out his plans for her she was aghast and dismayed that Edward was trying to take her dream from her, hence her request for a vote.

Regarding Aro: I kindly say, Aro offered to change Bella first then he saw Alice’s thoughts. His interest and his leniency came into play before taking Alice’s hand and reading her thoughts about her promise to Bella on the plane (which I believe turns the vampire-Bella vision back on).

************************************************************************************
corona ~

Before I forget, I wanted to make one last point on the lifestyle of the red-eyed vampires or any yellow-eyed vampire that slips and takes a human life. One of your past points (I think) was the afterlife for red-eyed vampires. My thoughts on that is, I think they would be in the same category as the person committing murder due to their medical glitch, regardless of the number of casualties.

Okay, moving on. I have made 6 points to your post to me.

1. Regarding Edward’s unpredictable suicidal tendencies: I agree with what you said.

2. Regarding Carlisle’s statement, “It’s the only way that makes sense,” Carlisle insisted. “You’ve chosen not to live without her, and that doesn’t leave me a choice.”:
I think that was Carlisle saying indirectly (paraphrasing here) “Son I’ve indulged you long enough, you’ve forced my hand and whether you agree or not, you're getting the vampire-female you were destined to have. She will be your help-mate comparable to you in every single way and we'll have no more of this nonsense of Bella remaining dangerously human while in your company or in this family!”.

Also, even if Alice was messing with Edward (which to some degree I think she was) she, IMO, gave him the ultimate test. She tempted him to think of leaving and he could not, it was too painful. Edward also says something like, thank heavens there are reasons for him to stick around. That doesn’t seem like he was forced to me. Further, like I said before, Edward and the family could not anticipate 1. Bella’s unconditional and irrevocable love for Edward and 2. that Bella's feelings would last. Humans change personalities all the time, hence our high divorce rate and who better than mind-reading-Edward knew that?

Also, I believe Carlisle is well aware of the vampire-mate-bond being active in Edward, which is the very reason he feels he has to change Bella, because unlike Marcus, there is no Chelsea to ease suicidal-Edward’s grief and effectively stopping him from endangering, not only himself, but the entire family. The lost would be too great for Carlisle or whoever happened to survive.

3. [Side Note] I see your edit regarding Esme. I thought everyone’s response at the MS table was reasonable. I hold the position, that everyone understood that the original vampire-Bella vision was (paraphrasing here) Edward's HEA coming to a theatre near you and happily sponsered by Bella's upcoming deathbed circumstance. IMO, Alice just provided a teaser trailer, of sorts, to what’s to come.

corona wrote:
Second, Edward has not chosen to live with her, it is impossible not to live with her. That goes for every single vampire.

Carlisle knows better, but he also knows Edward, and he's telling him to take responsibility for the situation, which Edward is not doing. Edward has completely disrupted all of their lives, he is responsible for revealing the Cullen family and Bella to the Volturi, and he now wants the family to take it on the lam for the next several decades while he sticks Bella in one hidey hole after the other. That is how he plans to fix the problems he is responsible for, by creating more problems and disrupting all of their lives even further. Carlisle needs Edward to snap out and face reality, which is why I think he words his statement the way he does. When I look from Edward's view I think it is so unfair, but when I look from Carlisle's view I see someone who needs a wakeup call, fast.

4. So true, so true.


Regarding your P.S.

5. Regarding Carlisle possibly snubbing Edward when he ignores Edward to make the offer to Bella:
I think he is indirectly scolding and reprimanding Edward for his dangerous, reckless and inconsiderate suicidal behavior. Edward is the apple of Carlisle and Esme’s eyes, but what he did was a BIG NO-NO and Carlisle had had enough. If the Volterra scene would have went badly, Carlisle would have lost Bella, Edward, Alice and in turn over-protective-of-Alice-Jasper. And I wouldn’t put it pass the surviving family to avenge everyone too. Total decimation of the family. Edward’s suicidal behavior had become more dangerous to the Cullens than the Volturi themselves. Edward had, albeit unintentionally, crossed the line, to say the very least.

6. Regarding what you said about Rosalie:
I must admit I did think that, when I first read it. I just thought, “ouch, Rosalie”. But then, I thought about it a little more, and thought, that would be “the pot calling the kettle black” and then I had to re-think what her “NO” vote actually meant to me. Which led me to think, as I said before, she meant well. She would not discard humanity for no one, not even Emmett. Not even for the human-girl who saved her brother and irrationally wants to be a yellow-eyed vampire. None of this is worth discarding humanity for. I’m probably alone in this, but I think Rosalie is the only one talking sense at that table. Edward’s NO-vote talks sense too, but everything he says after that is crazy. Living more undercover than what they already are and like you said hiding Bella in every “hidey hole” for the rest of her human life? He couldn’t even keep Bella safe for one year! How did he ever think he could keep her safe for 50-60 more years? Like Jacob says, “it must be the crazy talking”.

Lastly, regarding when you say, “Isn’t Rosalie’s explanation for her NO vote a backhanded slap at Carlisle and a warning to him that if he has any integrity he should vote NO as well?”:
I think Rosalie’s NO vote is a backhanded slap and a warning to Bella not Carlisle. Maybe it would have been for Carlisle IF she herself had not consented to have Emmett changed. But, that’s not the case. The issues between Carlisle and Rosalie, regarding the bite, were put away after Emmett. She like Edward just sometimes, well - - most of the times, get tired of feeling disgusted in their own skins (or stones) and start getting the blues about their monstrous-thirst.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:14 am

Violet Sunlight wrote:Tornado ~
Regarding Alice’s NM vision, I think you are right about the dual future appearing on the plane. However, I also think when Alice made her promise to Bella, the vampire-Bella vision was back on.


I don't doubt that Alice means to follow it through. The reason I am uncertain whether or not the vision can be seen at this point is because Alice and Bella's futures are so uncertain. They don't yet know if they can save Edward, but they're planning to try, and so any interference they put in at that stage could mean death at the hands of the Volturi. That's why I think Alice's future visions of Bella at this point might, at the very least, be clouded or dual.

Violet Sunlight wrote:Regarding Aro: I kindly say, Aro offered to change Bella first then he saw Alice’s thoughts. His interest and his leniency came into play before taking Alice’s hand and reading her thoughts about her promise to Bella on the plane (which I believe turns the vampire-Bella vision back on).


That is what I said in my previous post. "Also, since it's clear at that point (SM mentions, when Caius is contemplating killing them all, that Aro seems unhappy with the way the conversation is heading, indicating he would probably like to spare them, if he could) that Aro seems willing to be lenient, if only because he wants to see how Bella "turns out", it might only be at that point that Alice's vision of Bella becoming a vampire again came into effect."


Corona - I think Edward was reluctant to discuss it with Bella because he knew she'd just say it didn't matter to her, and he knew that wouldn't make any difference to the situation (which is exactly what happened). Maybe he felt the conversation would only make the whole thing more painful for both of them, because it wouldn't resolve the issue, until Edward had a reason to believe that he did have hope in an afterlife, which is what happened at the end of the novel.

Your point about Carlisle is a good one. I hadn't thought of it that way before. Although I still think a lot of it is just him fed up with Edward being so unreasonable about the whole situation and he knows it can't go on the way it is, and if Edward is unwilling to do it, then he's really the only other one who they know can do it safely. After all, they have all just agreed on it (apart from Edward and Rosalie), so it's not like he's acting on his own.
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:47 am

Tornado, I think you are right about that conversation that never happened. If we take the committments at the end of NM as being two sides of the same coin, changing Bella and getting married, then Bella was essentially pestering Edward during that summer about getting married (just how committed are you?). There isn't any way Edward can come outright and say NO without hurting Bella; she would feel completely rejected. That is exactly what the outcome would be if Edward could ever impress on Bella just how serious he was. So...he delays. He's actually been saying goodbye for a long time, something Bella picks up on in TW.

As far as Carlisle and Edward and "territoriality", I'm just having some fun, I have no idea, but that subject is very, very real amongst men. I confess that that is exactly how I would have taken it, I can't help it. I would have felt challenged, even as I knew that greater issues were at stake. And it is the first subject that comes up back at Charlie's house, isn't it? Funny how that worked out.

Violet Sunlight, with Rosalie I just can't get into her head. She is one massive short-circuit, so everything eventually returns to its default state: it's all really about Rosalie. Note that while Edward is still completely delusional, he at least understands that keeping Bella human has repurcussions that must be addressed. From Rosalie we get nothing, just a NO, even as she expressed derision for Edward's plan. She had nothing but scorn for Edward from the very beginning when she first heard of the vision. She likely would have preferred Edward had killed her. Her actions display an incurable stupidity because it is impossible for her to consider the consequences of decisions, she can only consider how things immediately affect her (which makes her stupid, despite her likely high IQ). She wants to be human so she can have babies, therefore Bella's best choice is to reject Edward and live a human life with someone else. Rosalie is so abysmally stupid that Edward's reaction to that would completely take her by surprise, even though she saw how that played out already. And frankly, if Bella actually did what Rosalie tells her she should do, Rosalie would eventually hate her for it. Stephenie herself didn't seem to have much sympathy for her. For what happened to her, yes, but not for what she became. Rosalie seems to be the cautionary tale in the story, not the voice of principled ethics.

My opinion only. I don't mean to get confrontational about Rosalie, I know how you feel about her vote. Rosalie and Jacob, though, get under my skin, and once I start writing about them I tend to let it hang all out. I do end up giving Rosalie a bit of slack because I know she is damaged and is incapable by nature of healing and growth. It's too bad Emmett didn't fix that part of her, maybe Nessie ends up helping a little.

P.S. A few more examples of Rosalie not thinking properly. She is furious when she is made aware that Bella knows what their true nature is, but Rosalie knew that was going to happen anyway. If she didn't want that relationship to develop she should have sided with Edward and Carlisle and insisted that the entire family leave once Alice reveals that Bella isn't going to say anything.

And how about this:

    "I’ll let you sleep now.” Rosalie’s eyes flickered to the bed, and her lips twitched. “I know you’re frustrated that he’s keeping you locked up like this, but don’t give him too bad a time when he gets back. He loves you more than you know. It terrifies him to be away from you.” She got up silently and ghosted to the door. “Goodnight, Bella,” she whispered as she shut it behind herself.
Doesn't quite add up, does it? Rosalie just told Bella she will regret giving up children and family, but then tells her Edward loves her deeply and hates being parted from her. Huh? It isn't that Rosalie couldn't say both things, it's that there doesn't appear to be any awareness on her part that life with children and life with Edward are mutually exclusive. It's like she can only juggle one ball at a time. Note that when she makes her argument, she never brings Edward into the conversation. She never says "You should stay human and have children, and I know that means leaving Edward and devastating him, but you still have to do it."
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Postby Violet Sunlight » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:07 pm

Tornado ~
Tornado wrote: However, Aro, not being stupid, would have realised the factors that came into play in Alice's visions the moment he started looking into her mind, so he may have only made the decision to change her when he saw that his decision was required to make the vision a definite future for Bella. Also, since it's clear at that point (SM mentions, when Caius is contemplating killing them all, that Aro seems unhappy with the way the conversation is heading, indicating he would probably like to spare them, if he could) that Aro seems willing to be lenient, if only because he wants to see how Bella "turns out", it might only be at that point that Alice's vision of Bella becoming a vampire again came into effect.

I interpreted these two sentences to mean, Aro was lenient AFTER taking Alice’s hand and seeing the vampire-Bella vision, that he too wanted to come to pass. Therefore, the point I was making is, that Aro already made the offer to change Bella and have her join his guard after his Jane-experiment and THEN he took Alice’s hand. Also, when I said “(which I believe turns the vampire-Bella vision back on)”, I meant the vampire-Bella vision was turned on by Alice’s promise on the plane, NOT in Volterra by Aro. My apologies if I have misunderstood your statement and for not being clear.

Also, errant thought here, couldn’t the NM dual vision be like the MS dual vision? They both have a dead Bella and they both have a vampire-Bella.
**************************************************************************************************************************************************
corona ~

Regarding Rosalie: I think the advice and warning Rosalie is trying to give Bella (please excuse my simple comparison illustration) is:
Human Female – Plus babies, Minus vampire thirst = good
Vampire Female – Minus babies, Plus vampire thirst = bad

I think even if Rosalie was infertile as a human and became a vampire, she still would have been disgusted in her vampire skin. Also, IMO, even if human-Bella was infertile, I feel Rosalie’s advice and warnings to Bella would NOT have changed. As a human if Bella was infertile, she still could have adopted a baby or babies and raise them as her own. Giving and receiving the love between a mother and child. The point I’m making is, whether fertile or infertile Bella’s option to be a mother was existent as a human. Unlike vampire-females who can never be a mother to a baby, toddler or any child less than 12yrs old (I say 12 because I think that’s the age the Volturi’s rule say one can be changed). Moreover, even if Rosalie changed a 12 yr old child, she would be putting herself in something like Esme’s shoes, which is not enough for her. By the way, I think Nessie ends up helping Rosalie a whole lot. This is just my perspective from a woman’s point of view.

Oh, regarding your crazy :roll: ;) “territorial” illustration. Although, I don’t agree, I can see how you could think that. Though, my impression of Carlisle is father-like to the Cullens and a medical professional to the humans. Maybe that’s just the woman side of me speaking.

Also, I don’t mind reading your passionate remarks on Rosalie or Jacob. I’ll let you know when it starts getting uncomfortable for me. Besides, if I can handle your remarks on Jacob, believe me, I can handle your remarks on Rosalie. :D So if you want, you can keep going. I know I’m not holding back either. ;)

Regarding your PS

Regarding Rosalie being upset Bella knows the vampire secret in TW and how she should have seen this coming:

Maybe, Rosalie thought Edward could have a relationship with Bella without sharing all the vampire details, like Edward did. It is possible, the Denali sisters do it. Though, no one would have guessed Edward would eventually get that close to his singer girlfriend.

:idea: Or maybe, Rosalie thought Bella’s imminent death circumstance was right around the corner and she wouldn’t know about the vampire secret while human.

:idea: Or maybe, Rosalie thought Edward was going to kill her before the relationship got serious. Either way a dead Bella or a vampire Bella is probably what the family is waiting for. IMO, the family doesn’t think Bella will choose to be a yellow-eyed vampire, yet.

:idea: Or maybe, Rosalie did not think Jacob Black was going to spill the beans about them.

Just some of my errant thoughts.

Regarding Rosalie in EC and you saying, [She never says "You should stay human and have children, and I know that means leaving Edward and devastating him, but you still have to do it."]

It’s implied. Bringing up Edward, in her argument to Bella to stay human, would have been self-defeating. Edward is the enticement for Bella to become a vampire and a yellow-eyed vampire at that. Rosalie is campaigning for humanity while trying not to make this harder than it already is on Edward, who I think is somewhat competing with Jacob, who Bella just so happened to phone at the Cullen house before Rosalie started her story/argument.
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:58 pm

Violet Sunlight, please don't challenge me on my territoriality issue, I get very territorial about that. :lol: Seriously, I didn't mean anything on Carlisle's part, it's simply an instinctual reflex in men.

I mean, really, don't you think once Carlisle explained his latest theories concerning the best method for changing someone, biting all of the pulse points and then licking the wounds, that Edward wouldn't have taken that duty over on the spot? Have you Googled "pulse points"?

    Back OFF, Carlisle!
    Are you sure, Edward?
    ........
    ........
    ........
    You know, we could go halfsies.
    GET OUT!!!!

Carlisle does have good taste in women. :twisted:

As to Rosalie, if she is fully aware that she is asking Bella to dump Edward, then she is fully aware of what that would do to him. That is placing Bella above Edward, a complete reversal for her. I just can't see that. I think something isn't quite right in her head.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:20 am

Violet Sunlight, I did say dual visions were a possibility, although I'm not so sure it would be in this case, as I think death was the more likely option, certainly for Edward, while they were still on the way there. I don't think Alice would have changed Bella if Edward had died. And my paragraph about Aro was suggesting that it could be either of those two scenarios.

Corona, I think it's more that Rosalie simply can't imagine Bella not wanting the things that she wants, and that she is just too young to think about those things yet. She is being quite condescending towards Bella, assuming that she doesn't know her mind. She's taking that mantle from Edward at this point, although she shares it with Jake, who is a little more forceful about pushing his point! I think that Rosalie believes that, once Bella realises that she really wants those things, her feelings for Edward will lessen. Again, she is assuming that the feelings that Bella has for Edward are less than his for her, and maybe she hasn't heard yet exactly what Bella was like while Edward was away, so that's the reason she is thinking that.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Violet Sunlight » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:41 am

Tornado ~
I kindly say, I guess until MS is published or any other book on the subject is published, I’m going to interpret Aro seeing the vampire-Bella vision as confirmation that the vision appeared on the plane when Alice made the promise.

Also, if Edward would have died in NM, I think (though, I’m not certain) Bella wouldn’t want to be a vampire.


corona ~

corona wrote: Seriously, I didn't mean anything on Carlisle's part, it's simply an instinctual reflex in men.

Evidently. :roll:

I suppose the next thing you’re going to tell me is that Esme is really jealous that Rosalie got 1. bit by her husband and 2. because Carlisle thought Rosalie was beautiful.[**eek**] Man, you are really messing up these characters in my head. :banghead: Where or where is the mental clorox when you need it? ;)

***
Okay, back to sanity.

corona wrote: As to Rosalie, if she is fully aware that she is asking Bella to dump Edward, then she is fully aware of what that would do to him. That is placing Bella above Edward, a complete reversal for her. I just can't see that. I think something isn't quite right in her head.

Alice is not the only one living vicariously through Bella. We all know Rosalie would drop Emmett like a bad habit if she had a chance to be human again. That is essentially what Rosalie is advising Bella to do.
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:45 pm

Tornado, I would agree with your points on Rosalie. The Unhappy Endings chapter was actually one of her best moments, though she becomes too forceful at times. The underlying message, this life isn't meant for everyone and you certainly don't want to go into it with regrets, gets buried since Rosalie doesn't make the best messenger. It certainly does come up again in the first half of BD. Bella's immediate takeaway, though, was someone in the Denali clan was hitting on Edward.

My critique of Rosalie isn't about her message, it's about her. I have a difficult time ascribing any noble intentions on her part. Her talk with Bella at least is honest, though, and she seems to be really trying.

Violet Sunlight, her willingness to dump Emmett if offered the impossible is the kicker for me. I can't see any of the others leaving their mate behind, knowing what it would do to them. I can't see Rosalie doing it either without having profound regrets. She would destroy Emmett. But I agree, I think she just might do it if offered the chance. When I say something isn't right in her head, I don't mean her desire to be human again is wrong or her desire for Bella to understand what she is giving up is wrong. I just mean Rosalie doesn't think things through, complexity of thought seems to be beyond her and she succumbs to tunnel vision.

Has she considered this:

* She will have to leave the Cullens behind. She loves each of them.
* She will have to leave Emmett.
* Emmett will likely go suicidal at some point.
* Tick tock. How long is it going to be before Rosalie can even consider dating again?
* Will she settle simply on some genetic donor for her children?
* Could she ever be happy again?
* Could she pretend that her vampire life just didn't happen?

I think it would be useful for her to think of these things. Not in case the opportunity ever comes up, it never will, but to realize and accept that her life has changed and that she needs to move on. I think she is incapable of maintaining any thought for more than a few seconds that renders her in a bad light or makes her responsible for something she would otherwise not want.

How about Stephenie's extra Miscalculation:

But I couldn't finish the sentence, because I could see it in my head, a vision of my own. A vision of me. An unthinkable vision of my life if somehow Emmett ceased to be. I shuddered away from the horror of the idea.

No--there was no comparison. Bella was just a human. Edward didn't want her to be immortal, so it wasn't the same. Edward couldn't feel the same!


There you have an attempt at complex thinking. First, Rosalie can't fathom the idea of losing Emmett. [I thought she could leave him behind, though?] Then she tries to relate that idea to Edward and Bella and simply can't. Of course Edward couldn't feel the same, that would mean Rosalie bears responsibility for what is now unfolding.

You see the same kind of thing happening earlier, when Rosalie searches for any measure of grief for Bella, and finds a little there in the way she made Edward happy for a while. This makes her feel good about herself. And then she gets distracted by her reflection in the window.

Rosalie's curse is that she understands at some level that she should be a better person, but her shallowness will not allow herself to take any responsibility for it, so she is incapable of any growth.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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