Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:34 am

No worries, Ginnie. Join in when you can!
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:02 am

Hello, Ginnie.

I have to say, I actually thought there was the slightest chance you might have jumped in at one point when the discussion touched on whether or not Edward would be able to leave Forks after the van incident. ;)
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Postby VirginiaMay » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:41 am

Oh, yes, well I gues I would have then! LOL, I couldn't remember if that was here or one of the Edward threads.

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Re: Explorations

Postby marielle » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:45 am

I find the Bella's blood illness discussion interesting.
I always thought that she was genetically different. One of my main reasons was the fact that she was able to smell blood.
Also the fact that she seems to be made for being a vampire...it all sums up that she is genetically different from normal human.
So this genetic difference could result in some sort of blood related disease.
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Re: Explorations

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:12 am

Well, you all know by now that I am an erratic poster. I'm feeling Lexish tonight.

I also find the Bella-syndrome discussion interesting. JG, your physician relation obviously knows her stuff! But we have evidence of Bella being clumsy in childhood, and we can conjecture that her mother was probably pretty good about getting her regular medical checkups. I think they would have noticed a degenerative nerve disorder. I'm clumsy without MS, and can testify that it did nothing for my childhood social relationships or self-esteem. I always thought her gracefulness in BD was because she had spent her whole life working so hard on trying to at least keep her balance, that once the human clumsiness was gone, her learned efforts made her more graceful.

She does seem to be born differently than other humans though - made to be a vampire. She continues to tolerate pain well (the burn) after transformation. We know from the Guide that singers impregnate more readily. Hormone balance optimized for receiving vampire wigglers? And hormones are powerful stuff. Maybe her neurotransmitters (including hormones) are optimized for the vampire transformation.

Hope this made some sense. It's terribly late and I'm coming to my senses and going to bed! So wish we could all stay up together and talk and talk.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:28 am

I'm not sure that the fact that Bella became pregnant so quickly is necessarily related to the physical attributes that made her a good vampire, or just the fact that, as Edward's singer, their cells combined more easily. The guide suggests that any vampire who had sex with their singer would impregnate her quickly, so I think that's more related to the appeal one had for the other. Perhaps it did break down into something chemical ultimately, but the unique aspects of Bella, and how she seems designed to become a vampire, seem to go beyond the singer part of her nature. The fact that she appeals to all vampires (i.e. smells more appealing than the average human) might be a more telling piece of information.
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:20 pm

smitten_by_twilight wrote:She does seem to be born differently than other humans though - made to be a vampire. She continues to tolerate pain well (the burn) after transformation.


Hello Smitten, I agree, Bella is simply well suited for her new life. We're just having some fun with this theory.

As to the tolerance of pain, I think Bella shows more self-control and iron will than anything else. If there is a physical issue involved, well, that makes it less heroic. If one is less sensitive to pain it simply means that one isn't experiencing the full measure of agony as one who is more sensitive to it.

Here I think is a chink in that MS argument. Bella is healed of all physical ailments during the transformation, and that would have made things simply worse for her, like when her spine is healed and the pain doubles. Toleration of pain based on a physical ailment (insensitivity) wouldn't have helped Bella there, it would have made things worse once the ailment was removed.

The true king of self-control is Carlisle, able to withstand the initial onslaught of pain sufficiently to hide himself and then stay quiet throughout the entire ordeal. As far as we know, Carlisle is unique in that aspect.

You could say the morphine makes the question moot, since by the time Bella could actually scream out her enhanced brain is capable of compartmentalizing the pain. I would assume she would have been screaming out at the beginning if she hadn't had the morphine in her system, as the pain was overwhelming.

Her true accomplishment was remaining absolutely still during the last half of her transformation. I'm not sure if even Carlisle did that, but there does seem to be additional control added once the brain catches up with the body and is able to actually think again.

But without that morphine, what would have happened? She does scream out in the first book. A lot.

    "My hand is burning!” I screamed, finally breaking through the last of the darkness, my eyes fluttering open.

    "The fire! Someone stop the fire!” I screamed as it burned me.

    I writhed in the grip of the fiery torture, the movement making the pain in my leg flare sickeningly.
    “Edward!” I screamed.

    At first the pain was worse. I screamed and thrashed against the cool hands that held me back.

P.S. Personally, I see a contradiction in Bella's description of the transformation and Carlisle's experience of it, although I don't dispute the canon. According to Bella the pain is overwhelming and bewildering to the point where you eventually lose all sense of self except for the desire to have the pain stop, that death is actually preferable. During that period of time nothing else existed for her (not even Edward) except pain. If you lose all sense of self, then self-control goes with it, meaning that Carlisle couldn't have prevented himself from screaming and thrashing around. He might even have preferred being found and destroyed rather than go through it, if he could have been conscious of such a thought.

I went back to BD to confirm, and found that Bella tells us she definitely would have been screaming, had wanted to scream, during that initial period, it was only being paralyzed by the morphine that prevented that.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:58 pm

corona wrote:Here I think is a chink in that MS argument. Bella is healed of all physical ailments during the transformation, and that would have made things simply worse for her, like when her spine is healed and the pain doubles. Toleration of pain based on a physical ailment (insensitivity) wouldn't have helped Bella there, it would have made things worse once the ailment was removed.


That's a good point, corona. Although I think it's still possible she had MS, just that it was not responsible for a lessened degree of pain. I don't know that she did feel pain less intensely. As you pointed out, I think it's more due to her self control than experiencing less pain than the average person.

When it comes to Carlisle's experience, I think, as you quote from Bella's experience, it is possible, certainly in the first little bit (and this would depend on how much venom is in the system initially) that the subject can have a conversation. Bella tells everyone that she is being burned when James bites her. So if Carlisle's bites were small and the burn started slowly, that would have given him sufficient consciousness to take himself away and hide, burying himself so no one could find him. As for his silence, I think Carlisle is the ultimate demonstration of iron will. I think that there is a large quantity of will power, in addition to compassion, that keeps him from killing a human, and I think it was this will that probably allowed him, during the first little while when he was aware what was happening before the venom really took hold of him, to put a gag on himself (maybe literally), to ensure that he wouldn't be discovered. Also, screaming is not always everyone's response to pain. Perhaps it was just not the way he responded. We know that Alice didn't make any sound either (so James told us, anyway). Perhaps they responded differently to pain from the way most people do.
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Re: Explorations

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:42 am

Tornado wrote:I'm not sure that the fact that Bella became pregnant so quickly is necessarily related to the physical attributes that made her a good vampire, or just the fact that, as Edward's singer, their cells combined more easily. The guide suggests that any vampire who had sex with their singer would impregnate her quickly, so I think that's more related to the appeal one had for the other. Perhaps it did break down into something chemical ultimately, but the unique aspects of Bella, and how she seems designed to become a vampire, seem to go beyond the singer part of her nature. The fact that she appeals to all vampires (i.e. smells more appealing than the average human) might be a more telling piece of information.

No, not necessarily related to the physical attributes that make her a good vampire, just possibly. Certain aspects of Bella being a natural for the vampiric lifestyle do seem to go beyond her being a singer, but some seem related to me. Running on this neurotransmitter theory (hormones being one type of neurotransmitter), her scent to Edward and other vampires could be related to a unique neurotransmitter balance, and she and Edward would be best suited to each other in getting preggers. This unique neurotransmitter balance might contribute to a slightly smoother physical and emotional transition to being a vampire. But it would pale (ha, ha) in comparison to the contribution made by her familiarity with the Cullens, her ability to control her instinctive fear, her ability to control pain (possibly related to those many injuries and having to be the parent and reassure her mom), and to the fact that she chose to become a vampire and fought for it.

corona wrote:As to the tolerance of pain, I think Bella shows more self-control and iron will than anything else. If there is a physical issue involved, well, that makes it less heroic. If one is less sensitive to pain it simply means that one isn't experiencing the full measure of agony as one who is more sensitive to it.

Very true. To me (and this is just my perception cuz I do this), I see Bella as setting aside her pain, kind of dissociating from it. I'm actually thinking here of the pain she experiences after transformation, the burn in her throat, rather than the burn of transformation which is overwhelming and un-dissociatable. I'm sorry I wasn't clearer on that, I should not have been trying to post here at 2 am local! It was total stream of consciousness. But to me, dissociating from the pain requires equal strength of mind as just tolerating and bearing it, even though it doesn't feel like it does.

corona wrote:Here I think is a chink in that MS argument. Bella is healed of all physical ailments during the transformation, and that would have made things simply worse for her, like when her spine is healed and the pain doubles. Toleration of pain based on a physical ailment (insensitivity) wouldn't have helped Bella there, it would have made things worse once the ailment was removed.

Brilliant! Yes, she would have experienced pain differently and more intensely after being of healed of such a thing during transformation.

corona wrote:P.S. Personally, I see a contradiction in Bella's description of the transformation and Carlisle's experience of it, although I don't dispute the canon. According to Bella the pain is overwhelming and bewildering to the point where you eventually lose all sense of self except for the desire to have the pain stop, that death is actually preferable. During that period of time nothing else existed for her (not even Edward) except pain. If you lose all sense of self, then self-control goes with it, meaning that Carlisle couldn't have prevented himself from screaming and thrashing around. He might even have preferred being found and destroyed rather than go through it, if he could have been conscious of such a thought.

I didn't think of that, but you are right, there's an inconsistency. We know little about Edward's transformation, but Rosalie apparently screamed most of the time. (Gosh, I hope the neighbors didn't hear! ;) ) People do react differently to pain, as Tornado pointed out, and Carlisle was aware at the beginning that he was in a different environment (dangerous) than Bella was (supportive), which might have encouraged him to hold on to his awareness. Perhaps that is part of his tremendous feat; not only to remain silent, as Alice and Bella did, but to do so unmedicated while maintaining awareness of his surroundings. For 3 God-awful days. It must be very tempting to give in to the pain, scream and writhe, and stop fighting to focus on anything else.
Last edited by smitten_by_twilight on Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:50 am

Yes, I think Carlisle is probably the most remarkable of all the vampires we encounter, both for his silence from the start of his transformation, and his resistance to human blood from the outset, in spite of the fact that there was no one there to support him, unlike every other member of the Cullen family who were able to abstain by choice. Even Alice 'saw' the Cullens so knew such a life was possible by their example, and she only had sporadic success at keeping to it before joining them. I get the impression that the Denali sisters failed a lot before they succeeded, but Carlisle kept his commitment from the word go in spite of the fact he was alone. This could also relate to his ability to keep quiet. If he suspected what was happening from the onset of pain he might have realised that having a human near him when he had finished transforming would mean certain death for them, so perhaps it was something to do with his compassion that enabled him to establish control before the full onset of the pain, and through the full three days he was transforming. He clearly has a massive amount of strength of mind.
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