Ambivalences

General Discussion on the Twilight Universe

Moderators: December, bac, Bronze Haired Girl, cullengirl

Forum rules
Click for Forum Rules

Re: Ambivalences

Postby December » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:40 pm

edits to my post above
Image
“When did you ever promise to kill yourself falling out of Charlie’s tree?”
User avatar
December
Muse of Philosophical Discussion
 
Posts: 2711
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:09 am
Location: Putting the "Longa" into Ars Longa....

Re: Ambivalences

Postby Jazz Girl » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:19 pm

Oh, why not? Guess I could post my response here as well. So here goes...

Let it be understood that I've only ever thought that Ms. Ness was truly a gift to Edward, a reward of sorts for all of the pain, the angst, the emotional torment that The Saga as a whole brought him. One has to admit, loving Bella, particularly as a human, was just a painful experience at times. And not just because of his own self-loathing. So, yes, in the end, after everything he endures to he with his love, he gets the added reward of a beautiful daughter who represents all those things; redemption, the continuation of their love beyond them, and the realization that there love created something so powerfully beautiful.

Buuuuttttt.... (oh come on, you knew it was coming)

There are two flaws that I see with that logic. First, Edward's perfect reward is almost immediately borrowed (I would say stolen, but at least he still gets to have her with him for a few years) by the one person who has contributed more to his torment than anyone except Edward himself. So, while I completely agree with you that Ness is a gift to Edward, I can't see her in that completely beatific light.

Secondly, and most importantly, my immediate reaction is, "why can't we have both?" If Ness is truly that redemption for Edward, the source of his epiphany that he is not a monster, that he deserves love, that he is worthy of loving and being loved, why, in an epic romance, do we have to sacrifice that for the perfect resolution to the romance that would be Bella and Edward both equally choosing each other and their love over every other consideration? Why can't we have both? Even if SM was completely married to having Ness as Edward's redemption, why did that have to replace Bella making a completely informed choice and Edward accepting that ultimate measure of love for him? There are plenty of ways that it could be done. And, quite frankly, that might lessen just slightly the sting of Edward's perfect gift being immediatly coopted.
“Directing 7 Cullens at once=herding cats" :ROTFLMAO:
C-Dubs is TwitterRoyalty
Image
Turning Page is Gospel~Ashley=MiniMe~HHBS
User avatar
Jazz Girl
Making beautiful music with Edward as only I can
 
Posts: 5119
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Rob's HalfwayHouse, shacked up with some FicWard.

Re: Ambivalences

Postby December » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:58 pm

jazzgirl wrote:If Ness is truly that redemption for Edward, the source of his epiphany that he is not a monster, that he deserves love, that he is worthy of loving and being loved, why, in an epic romance, do we have to sacrifice that for the perfect resolution to the romance that would be Bella and Edward both equally choosing each other and their love over every other consideration? Why can't we have both?

Why indeed? You and I are breathing one breath here, Jazzgirl! I think the answer is the one Kayla spelt out: if they choose freely it lays on them the guilt of having made that choice.. But as I was starting to say, this succesful moral manoeuvering comes at the cost of the romance. Which is a pity.

Gah, posting from an iPhone is just an exercise in fustration. More another time!


[ Post made via Mobile Device ]
Image
“When did you ever promise to kill yourself falling out of Charlie’s tree?”
User avatar
December
Muse of Philosophical Discussion
 
Posts: 2711
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:09 am
Location: Putting the "Longa" into Ars Longa....

Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:38 pm

Can I just make a request that we stop cross posting between this and the Ambivalences thread? Or can we combine the two? I'm getting really confused over what I read where ...
Image
Tornado
La Push Lover
 
Posts: 3058
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:06 pm
Location: The Land Down Under

Re: Ambivalences

Postby Jazz Girl » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:22 pm

I think the crosspost was because the topic seemed to address posts on both threads and Openhome wanted to involve everyone.
“Directing 7 Cullens at once=herding cats" :ROTFLMAO:
C-Dubs is TwitterRoyalty
Image
Turning Page is Gospel~Ashley=MiniMe~HHBS
User avatar
Jazz Girl
Making beautiful music with Edward as only I can
 
Posts: 5119
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Rob's HalfwayHouse, shacked up with some FicWard.

Re: Ambivalences

Postby Openhome » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:11 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:I think the crosspost was because the topic seemed to address posts on both threads and Openhome wanted to involve everyone.


Yep. Sorry. :blush:

I replied to Jazz Girl on Explorations, by the way. Go here to see it.

To me, both threads are talking essentially about the same thing. I tried, not successfully, to keep one topic on plot and character, and the other on the reason. Sorry if I messed it up.
December wrote:Why indeed? You and I are breathing one breath here, Jazzgirl! I think the answer is the one Kayla spelt out: if they choose freely it lays on them the guilt of having made that choice.. But as I was starting to say, this succesful moral manoeuvering comes at the cost of the romance. Which is a pity.


Again, I actually spoke to this on the other thread as well, but I wanted to specifically reply here.

I think the reason we have two groups, one who like or love BD and a larger group that doesn't, is because there was a disconnect with exactly that theme in the story. Stephenie has said that they did choose each other. I saw it, too. They made the choice many times over. It's just that Stephenie removed the choice from the death scene. For me, the choice had been made and was done, the romance was fulfilled, and now all that was left was a "sinless" (for lack of a better word) transformation. I didn't need the bite (as I've said to December repeatedly) because I never really connected romance with it. I can totally SEE where it would be beautiful. Even fanfic writers have made it beautiful (Jazz, please pm December some good alternate BD stories!) But for me, the bite wasn't necessary. The choices were made and done.

As you said, December...
December wrote:if Isaac had tripped on the way up the mountain and hit his head and died -- or been rescued by a white knight -- so that Abraham was never called upon to make good on his choice, it would not be the same story. But whether one finds the new story less aesthetically satisfying than the old....well that does take us onto the treacherous ground of personal taste!
Yep. Annoying isn't it? :twisted:

And like Isaac tripping up the mountain, the choice isn't seen as sin, but the act is.
User avatar
Openhome
Corralling the Cullens while Esme's Away
 
Posts: 2595
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: Chatting with Esme and giving her parenting advice

Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:33 pm

Openhome wrote: Stephenie has said that they did choose each other. I saw it, too. They made the choice many times over. It's just that Stephenie removed the choice from the death scene. For me, the choice had been made and was done, the romance was fulfilled, and now all that was left was a "sinless" (for lack of a better word) transformation.


Absolutely.
Image
Tornado
La Push Lover
 
Posts: 3058
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:06 pm
Location: The Land Down Under

Re: Ambivalences

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:52 am

Kind of glad you joined the discussion, Kayla, except that I really don't need to say anything on any topic that you post on, because you generally express what I'm thinking, except more clearly, completely, concisely, and with fully developed thoughts rather than my emerging ideas. So
:good: :clap:

and here are some extra thoughts on romance, self-sacrifice, and biting.

corona commented that Stephenie is obviously very tender-hearted, and I really think that this strongly influenced where she wanted her characters to end. She is the god of her universe, and she is merciful and loving. She wanted Happily Ever After. Yet she is not so tender-hearted that her characters do not suffer and work for their HEA. Bella pushed constantly for her transformation and schemed for it (despite her temporary distraction over sex, bless her simplistic heart, and tranformation was still her end goal). Bella earned every particle of control over the pain of transformation and her bloodlust - by the self-discipline that she learned in New Moon, and to a lesser extent, in Eclipse. (Support: Edward's comment that she did better than he did at pulling herself together after he left her. Granted, she had more reason, but still, she really developed a lot of self-control.) She schemed, suffered, and nearly died for Renesmee. Even though it looks like she won the lottery, it is closer to say that she worked her tail off for it.

And, yes, Nessie is Edward's HEA, but Bella, and the ease of her transformation and transition to her new life, is just as much his HEA - one is not complete without the other. (Imagine Edward's reaction if he had been unable to save Bella! Back to Italy ....) This is one of the things that I value in Stephenie and Orson Scott Card; the portrayal of committed, mature romantic love in the context of a family, the deep and committed love that can endure for years, that reaches out to embrace their children and those around them as well. To me, it is one of, if not the best thing in the world, one that transcends everyday reality to be something more profound.

Stephenie seems to have wanted a fairytale HEA for her beloved characters, not the more modern and realistic version where people have realistic burdens to carry. So instead of the realistic burden of infertilty, Bella and Edward have the fairytale burden of an imprinted-on daughter. And instead of the realistic, wearing burdens of committing immoral acts for their love of each other (Bella sacrificing her life, Edward sacrificing his conscience), they have the fairytale burden of neverending thirst - a moral and spiritual struggle in a different way. Maybe, December, you are wanting the more realistic ending, and having watched a lot of unrealistic Hollywood movie endings, I can certainly sympathize with that. But it seems to me that it was Stephenie's choice to bring Bella into the fairytale in Breaking Dawn, rather than bringing the fairytale to Bella, which was more like what was happening in Twilight.

Hope these late-night thoughts contribute to the discussion. Thursday I will try to catch up on Explorations!
My FanFiction Page ~ Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
Image
Proud Halfway House Cousin Sister! - Team Alice Celebrity Chef - Seeing the future since 1901
User avatar
smitten_by_twilight
Hiding Lauren's Hair Dye
 
Posts: 444
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:56 pm
Location: Making cinnamon rolls with Edward

Re: Ambivalences

Postby newborntwifan » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:20 pm

I am really appreciating the conversation that is going on here (and on the Explorations thread). I didn't begin reading the Saga until 2010, and I am one of those readers who was very unhappy when I read BD. My disappointment is actually one of the reasons I discovered the Lex, so something good came out of it anyway!

Many of your perspectives, however, have me reconsidering some of points of contention I had with the story line and contemplating a reread of BD (even though I've read TW-NM-EC four or five times each, I just couldn't bring myself to pick up BD again). I'm starting to come around to the idea that maybe Bella's transformation wasn't "too easy" as I originally thought; maybe she did suffer enough pre-transformation. And maybe Nessie is a gift for Edward, finally helping him to realize that indeed he does deserve love and he is not the monster he always considered himself to be. I'm hoping all of you could give me your insights on some of the plot points that are still bothering me, though...

I know it's all fantasy and we have to suspend belief throughout the Saga, but at the same time, I feel like there is a considerable aspect of the story grounded in reality (or at least a reality of SM's creating). Certain people are in on the secret and certain people are not, so when Jake simply phased in front of Charlie and it was all good, that for me is beyond the scope of SM's reality as I perceived it to be. I wasn't so much disappointed in this event, but I was definitely annoyed. This is still a place where I think SM took the easy way out.

That point isn't all that important, though, in comparison to what I have come to realize is perhaps my biggest problem with the story: Jake imprinting on Nessie. Like I said, you've done a pretty thorough job convincing me why Nessie is a necessary part of the story, so perhaps you can help me here. I know in the original story arc that included FD, Jake had a minor role and did not have a romantic relationship with Bella, so the imprint would have a different feel if that were the direction of the published version of the Saga. With the addition of NM and EC, though, the relationship between Jake and Bella becomes complicated and painful, and by Jake imprinting on Nessie in BD, his HEA is forever tied with Edward's and Bella's in an extremely personal (and uncomfortable) way. I'm all for Jake deserving his own HEA, but I would have been so much more satisfied if it didn't take away from the HEA that ExB so richly deserve (which, in my opinion, it does). There had to have been a way for Jake to have a HEA that allowed him to move beyond Bella while allowing them to remain part of one another's lives (as friends). I know SM already had the story completed in her mind as far back as '03, but after the direction things took in NM and EC, wouldn't she have considered the possibility that some aspects of the story may have needed altered? I certainly mean no disrespect to the author, I'm just stating how the story would've been more satisfying for me personally.

Finally, and perhaps the most minor of all of my issues, was the introduction of so many new vamps. I'm not sure if I was just so disappointed by that point in the story that I was giving up, but all of the preparations for the Volturi confrontation seemed to drag on and on and I simply lost interest. I also remember being a little confused by the whole J. Jenks story line and by Alice leaving, but that's probably why I need a reread!
User avatar
newborntwifan
Wandering Through Town
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:44 pm

Re: Ambivalences

Postby Tornado » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:31 pm

Personally, I think SM believes that Bella's HEA could not be truly perfect if Jacob was not included in her family in some way. That is happiness for her. And although a lot of fans have problems with it, from Bella's POV it will make her happy. I believe Jake is, essentially, a good guy, he just needs to grow up and learn a thing or two. Hopefully he will.
Image
Tornado
La Push Lover
 
Posts: 3058
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:06 pm
Location: The Land Down Under

PreviousNext

Return to Quench Your Thirst

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron