Jacob Black

[Liv-wa]

first off, jacob and nessie are going to be together....i don't see where you can deny that anymore.

Um...who's denying that Jacob and Nessie are going to be together? If you'd read through what I said, you'd realize I was agreeing with cataclysm that Jacob and Nessie's relationship can't take the same kind of route as Bella and Edward because they're two different people. Meaning, they're going to have a romantic relationship, yes, but it's not going to be the same as Bella and Edward because their personalities don't match up the same way.

There personalities will match up, that's how imprinting works. It is like complete soulmate to the next level. (besides what ever happend to opposites attract) Jacob will be completely right for her, and i have a feeling she will need just as much looking after, if not more, than mommy dearest...so Jake should have his hands full.

Once again, I am trying to say that how he reacts in Breaking Dawn isn't so much maturity as it is him having a sense of right and wrong. Of coure he'd protect the Cullens because it was the right thing to do. He didn't like them at first and in that sense, he HAS come a long way. I don't think that would be called "maturity", more like seeing the truth and coming to realize he wasn't seeing things in the right way. Maybe a small part of that is maturity, but in my opinion, not a large part.

First off, how many three year olds do you know have a strong sense of right and wrong on every aspect of life. If maturity had nothing to do with the right vs. wrong dilema, having children would be a whole lot easier. Granted, you can have a mature three year old for their age, but a sense of right and wrong comes with gaining experience, and with experience comes maturity. Therefore, to have a strong sense of right and wrong, which you said Jacob demonstrated, you would have to be somewhat mature. Besides, I can come up with entire pages of things Edward has done rashly and wrongly, showing less maturity then Jacob who I can only find a few rash decisions...and even then they were not as great as Edward's nor as important.

[*Bloodlust*]

snip

I don't think Jacob Black is an immature person, more that I think he has an immature mind; the mind of a 16/17 year old boy. Essentially, his first reaction to a situation is to look at it with the 16/17 year old boy mentality, but then the more "mature" and "truth-seeing" side has to reassess the situation so that he handles whatever come at him[usually the Cullens in some form] in another way. In a sense, I respect that about him. He has to see things twice before he acts. Sometimes he doesn't get to the second view and acts, to what we see, "rashly".

By that criteria we all have 'immature' minds.

Valid point. You're actually right with how I worded, but it's evident that I'm not making myself clear and I don't seem to be able to find the words to do so.

I'll try again. Let me compare Jacob and Bella's mind. Yes, we known Bella is soooooo mature for her age and blah blah blah[though THAT I have some opiions, on...later]. For me, the difference in reading from Bella's perspective and then reading from Jake's POV explain what I can't seem to verbalize. It's like...Jake's actually mind is 'immature', but his actions aren't always so. The difference being that in Breaking Dawn Book 2, we saw it in action while as we were reading New Moon and Eclipse, it wasn't visible. But for me, there was always something about Jake's thinking not matching up with his actions and vice versa that I had problems with. I guess seeing how he thinks just ascertained how I thought his mind worked. Ok. I hope that made it a little more clear.

[cataclysm]

i think (and god do i hope) that "jessie" will be more simple. no less romantic - in fact, in my opinion, more romantic - but so much less mushy. men shouldn't say things that edward does. i know that's sexist and terrible, but i, personally, like my men a little rougher. which is why i like jacob. and nessie seems a little less silly than her mother, so that should be ok.

LOL! HOFJ. I pretty much agree. I don't advocate 'simple' , but I do prefer 'less mushy'. I think SM does a good job of conveying Jake's tenderness without overdoing it.

[Liv-wa]

Valid point. You're actually right with how I worded, but it's evident that I'm not making myself clear and I don't seem to be able to find the words to do so.

I'll try again. Let me compare Jacob and Bella's mind. Yes, we known Bella is soooooo mature for her age and blah blah blah[though THAT I have some opiions, on...later]. For me, the difference in reading from Bella's perspective and then reading from Jake's POV explain what I can't seem to verbalize. It's like...Jake's actually mind is 'immature', but his actions aren't always so. The difference being that in Breaking Dawn Book 2, we saw it in action while as we were reading New Moon and Eclipse, it wasn't visible. But for me, there was always something about Jake's thinking not matching up with his actions and vice versa that I had problems with. I guess seeing how he thinks just ascertained how I thought his mind worked. Ok. I hope that made it a little more clear.

First off, I must say I can not find that maturity in Bella. I see her as very childlike, but this isn't her board so I'm not going to go of on her here. BUT ANYWAY...I don't see how his mind could be immature but his actions reflect the opposite. That whole concept is foreign to me. Are your actions not controlled by your mind?

[Liv-wa]

i think (and god do i hope) that "jessie" will be more simple. no less romantic - in fact, in my opinion, more romantic - but so much less mushy. men shouldn't say things that edward does. i know that's sexist and terrible, but i, personally, like my men a little rougher. which is why i like jacob. and nessie seems a little less silly than her mother, so that should be ok.

LOL! HOFJ. I pretty much agree. I don't advocate 'simple' , but I do prefer 'less mushy'. I think SM does a good job of conveying Jake's tenderness without overdoing it.

I agree whole-heartedly. Some of the B/E stuff was slightly sickening.

[*Bloodlust*]

First off, how many three year olds do you know have a strong sense of right and wrong on every aspect of life. If maturity had nothing to do with the right vs. wrong dilema, having children would be a whole lot easier. Granted, you can have a mature three year old for their age, but a sense of right and wrong comes with gaining experience, and with experience comes maturity. Therefore, to have a strong sense of right and wrong, which you said Jacob demonstrated, you would have to be somewhat mature. Besides, I can come up with entire pages of things Edward has done rashly and wrongly, showing less maturity then Jacob who I can only find a few rash decisions...and even then they were not as great as Edward's nor as important.

Well obviously you can't use a 3-year old in this analogy! Just like you really can't use a 12-year old. Now, if you guys are talking about Jake is more mature because he's getting older, then fine. I can agree with that. I was under the impression that he appeared more mature to you by his action which I DO think show maturity, but not in the high standards that it seems you guys hold it. To me there, he's the same. See, now I'm not sure we're even on the same train of thought anymore. Also, I don't really understand why you're bringing Edward into this. Of couse Edward acts rashly. I think he act more rashly than any other character in these books, but that's a WHOLE 'NOTHER STORY. Jake's immaturity and maturity are not as vital as Edward's in the story and never will I dispute that. And most of everything I'm saying applies to Book 2 and before because post Book 3 AKA Book 3, I think Jake changes for the worse and for the better, based on how you look at it.

Also, I'm not bothered at all by Edward and Bella's romance. Don't find it sickening. I think it all goes quite well with the two of them because that's how they communicate with one another. Just what I think though.

[cataclysm]

Bloodlust wrote:

snip
Valid point. You're actually right with how I worded, but it's evident that I'm not making myself clear and I don't seem to be able to find the words to do so.
snip
For me, the difference in reading from Bella's perspective and then reading from Jake's POV explain what I can't seem to verbalize. It's like...Jake's actually mind is 'immature', but his actions aren't always so.
snip
for me, there was always something about Jake's thinking not matching up with his actions and vice versa that I had problems with. I guess seeing how he thinks just ascertained how I thought his mind worked. Ok. I hope that made it a little more clear.

It's okay, I think I see where you're coming from. I've found all the main character's actions to be immature at times. I think what you mean in terms of 'immaturity' of mind, may just come down to different personalities. And to be honest, if people were able to read my internal dialogue, the word mature would be kicked out of the adjective pool in describing it

[*Bloodlust*]

First off, I must say I can not find that maturity in Bella. I see her as very childlike, but this isn't her board so I'm not going to go of on her here. BUT ANYWAY...I don't see how his mind could be immature but his actions reflect the opposite. That whole concept is foreign to me. Are your actions not controlled by your mind?

Ugh! I can't edit so I have to post again. Wish I'd seen this before..

About you're first statement, I can agree to a certain extent[I think I said something about it?], Bella is child-like in a lot of ways, but I do happen to see maturity in her also. But again, save that for her board.

You have no idea how frustratin it is to realize that no one seems to understand what I'm saying. "I don't see how his mind could be immature but his actions reflect the opposite." It just goes back to what I said about how he first evaluates a situation then has to change his actions and the it doesn't match up. But like before, you could say all our minds our immature[they all could be, I don't know how you all think], but that's not quite what I mean, but apparantly, I'll never get it right.

Here's an example. Jake's initial reaction to Edward's newfound awe with being able to hear Nessie's thoughts was to run out and imprint on a girl to escape the pain of being alone and not having Bella. Justified? In a sense, yes. ***IMO*** it also shows the initial immature* action. After he goes through that scene[which I was really irritated about because I was PRAYING something would amount from it, other than more realization], he comes back and takes the more mature route of facing the problem and realizing he only has 3 more days left with Bella. I don't know if that example made sense, but I can hope.

*this is just to say that when I say "immature" it isn't the typical definition of immature because all of Stephenie's characters are waaaay more mature than other people. Because they're ficticious one would assume.

[Liv-wa]

First off, how many three year olds do you know have a strong sense of right and wrong on every aspect of life. If maturity had nothing to do with the right vs. wrong dilema, having children would be a whole lot easier. Granted, you can have a mature three year old for their age, but a sense of right and wrong comes with gaining experience, and with experience comes maturity. Therefore, to have a strong sense of right and wrong, which you said Jacob demonstrated, you would have to be somewhat mature. Besides, I can come up with entire pages of things Edward has done rashly and wrongly, showing less maturity then Jacob who I can only find a few rash decisions...and even then they were not as great as Edward's nor as important.

Well obviously you can't use a 3-year old in this analogy! Just like you really can't use a 12-year old. Now, if you guys are talking about Jake is more mature because he's getting older, then fine. I can agree with that. I was under the impression that he appeared more mature to you by his action which I DO think show maturity, but not in the high standards that it seems you guys hold it. To me there, he's the same. See, now I'm not sure we're even on the same train of thought anymore. Also, I don't really understand why you're bringing Edward into this. Of couse Edward acts rashly. I think he act more rashly than any other character in these books, but that's a WHOLE 'NOTHER STORY. Jake's immaturity and maturity are not as vital as Edward's in the story and never will I dispute that. And most of everything I'm saying applies to Book 2 and before because post Book 3 AKA Book 3, I think Jake changes for the worse and for the better, based on how you look at it.

Also, I'm not bothered at all by Edward and Bella's romance. Don't find it sickening. I think it all goes quite well with the two of them because that's how they communicate with one another. Just what I think though.

Ok, so I'll get rid of the three year old..but still, how many 17 year old guys can you think of that would take the same actions Jacob has? He is mature for HIS age, which I am pretty sure is the point we are all arguing. Granted, he will not have the same maturity level of a full grown man, but give him some slack...not all of us can live for 100 years before we find our soul mates. I'm also just curious, what are the bad ways Jake changes in BD. I just want to know your view on that.

After he goes through that scene[which I was really irritated about because I was PRAYING something would amount from it, other than more realization], he comes back and takes the more mature route of facing the problem and realizing he only has 3 more days left with Bella. I don't know if that example made sense, but I can hope.

But isn't part of maturity, being able to sit back and figure out what to do without being hasty? Even if it takes a few hours to decide the right desicion it's still better than *cough* flying off to Italy and becoming suicidal *cough*
-hides behind couch cusion-
Oh, and I do think that mushy B/E fits them, that doesn't mean I don't find it like I just ate to much candy.

[*Bloodlust*]

I'd just like to thank you guys for being respectful of my opinions. It's really cool we're able to debate in a civil manner. I was worried I would be killed in the process.

Ok, so I'll get rid of the three year old..but still, how many 17 year old guys can you think of that would take the same actions Jacob has? He is mature for HIS age, which I am pretty sure is the point we are all arguing. Granted, he will not have the same maturity level of a full grown man, but give him some slack...not all of us can live for 100 years before we find our soul mates. I'm also just curious, what are the bad ways Jake changes in BD. I just want to know your view on that.

Ok. lol Well that just goes with my asterick comment that ALL of Stephenie Meyers' characters are more mature than should be possible. And if we all want to look at it that way, then ok. Of couse we can't compare him to Edward. If we're getting to that, then I'm out. That never ends well.

But isn't part of maturity, being able to sit back and figure out what to do without being hasty? Even if it takes a few hours to decide the right desicion it's still better than *cough* flying off to Italy and becoming suicidal *cough*
-hides behind couch cusion-

Come out, come out wherever you are! Haha I won't kill you. DO NOT get me started on how melodramatic Edward is. Except...Jake is too. I never realized he was until I read Book 2! Even he admits to it sometimes. I'm not a fan of dramatic tendencies. Also...there's a slight difference in Edward's immediate suicide mission. Well, Bella is his soulmate. He thought she was dead. Bella was NOT Jake's soul mate and she wasn't dead. If in 15 years, there reaches a point where Jake is certain Nessie is dead[He'd never allow it anyway ], then I'm sure he'd go try and kill himself. I might be wrong, but the concept of imprinting leaves me under that interpretation.