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Re: Jacob Black

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:13 pm

bella DID love him. she just didn't know it yet...

it's true that jacob shows a WHOLE lot of maturity in this book, absolutely and without a doubt.

but he showed it in the other books too. well maybe not twilight, but he wasn't around enough to anyway.

but in NM, to take care of bella that way took a lot of maturity. dealing with becoming a werewolf and gaining control as fast as he did took a lot of maturity. keeping bella alive took a lot of maturity.

in eclipse, he was NOT a love struck teen pining for the girl he likes. i resent that. he was a boy in love with a girl who was in love with him, whom he had fallen for during her darkest hour, who was his best friend. he was a boy who was trying to save the life of his best friend. he was not a silly little boy who needed to butt out. he was a man on a mission, dealing with a situation that NO ONE, young or old, should have to deal with. And then, when he accomplished his mission, but it wasn't quite enough, he accepted that and stopped fighting. and that's not quite the behavior of a "pining love struck teen" is it?
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby *Bloodlust* » Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:51 pm

Yeesh I'm afraid I'm going to get stoned :shock: . I actually don't think Jacob Black has changed much at all. The only difference is that now, his former opinions on the vampires haven't been justified and he sees that they're more "human" than he initally thought. You could call it maturity, but it really just seems that the truth has been revealed to him and he can't deny that truth now that he's seen it firsthand.

That being said, my problem with Jacob Black has always been the same. I like him, I really do, but he annoys me and frustrates me with the way he thinks. Haha in a sense, his "immaturity" does it. In fact, the closest time he's come to overcoming that was in imprintation on Nessie. At least with that, his outlook on everything was focused souly on her and he no longer had all the hate and anger[however "justified"] against the Cullens.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby cataclysm » Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:42 pm

*Bloodlust* wrote:snip You could call it maturity, but it really just seems that the truth has been revealed to him and he can't deny that truth now that he's seen it firsthand.


Immaturity would have been not accepting that the cullens were good people and choosing not to protect them because it was the right thing to do. If he were a lesser (immature) person, he could have done that.

That being said, my problem with Jacob Black has always been the same. I like him, I really do, but he annoys me and frustrates me with the way he thinks. Haha in a sense, his "immaturity" does it. In fact, the closest time he's come to overcoming that was in imprintation on Nessie. At least with that, his outlook on everything was focused souly on her and he no longer had all the hate and anger[however "justified"] against the Cullens.


I guess that's fair. It comes down to personal preference. I'm almost the complete opposite. I've always felt he handled the things thrust on him at his age pretty well, in fact exceedingly well considering the alternatives. I like his wit/humor and incredible (to me) capacity to love. In fact, the juxtaposition of his extreme wit with his extreme emotional depth bound me even closer to him as a character. I like bella/edward well enough, but I'm not that huge a fan their love story or of them individually. They aren't the reasons I'm still obsessing over the books. The biggest thing I fear about the nessie imprinting is the possibility of jacob losing his humor. I'm okay with him loving and being deeply bonded to nessie. I'd love to read how their relationship develops, and I know that things won't be easy for them. However, I cringe at the thought of them having the bella/edward brand of melodrama.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby *Bloodlust* » Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:59 pm

cataclysm wrote:
*Bloodlust* wrote:snip You could call it maturity, but it really just seems that the truth has been revealed to him and he can't deny that truth now that he's seen it firsthand.


Immaturity would have been not accepting that the cullens were good people and choosing not to protect them because it was the right thing to do. If he were a lesser (immature) person, he could have done that.

That being said, my problem with Jacob Black has always been the same. I like him, I really do, but he annoys me and frustrates me with the way he thinks. Haha in a sense, his "immaturity" does it. In fact, the closest time he's come to overcoming that was in imprintation on Nessie. At least with that, his outlook on everything was focused souly on her and he no longer had all the hate and anger[however "justified"] against the Cullens.


Ok with that being said, it doesn't change anything. Jake is still at the same level he was at before. In Eclipse it was the same thing. He spent that night in the tent with Edward and finally came to realize that Edward did truly love Bella. If you want to go even farther back, we can look at New Moon when he realizes that Edward is part of Bella and there's nothing he can do about it. So, I can't call him "immature" in the first place. It seems, that it always takes Jacob Black seeing the truth and then having to handle how he would have handled the situation previously, in a new way.

I don't think Jacob Black is an immature person, more that I think he has an immature mind; the mind of a 16/17 year old boy. Essentially, his first reaction to a situation is to look at it with the 16/17 year old boy mentality, but then the more "mature" and "truth-seeing" side has to reassess the situation so that he handles whatever come at him[usually the Cullens in some form] in another way. In a sense, I respect that about him. He has to see things twice before he acts. Sometimes he doesn't get to the second view and acts, to what we see, "rashly".

I agree that him and Nessie have potential to go all wrong. The reason Bella and Edward can go the path they do with all of their romantic stuff is because of both of their personalities. I think that Nessie has the personality for that to work, but Jacob doesn't. Their relationship CANNOT[better yet, SHOULD NOT] take the same course as Bella and Edward's or that could turn out badly. That same kind of romance has potential to get all twisted.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:22 pm

first off, jacob and nessie are going to be together....i don't see where you can deny that anymore.

i find maturity to be not in our initial internal reactions to things but in how we handle them and in our actions. our maturity must come from something we can control, and that is our actions and reasoning, not our emotions.

for instance, say i was given a bad grade in school unfairly. my first reaction, internally, would of course be fury at the teacher ("they are so stupid" "i can't freaking believe this" etc). i can't help that. what i can help, however, are my thoughts after that. if i were to think "they must have done it on purpose" or something along those lines, THAT would be immature. and then maturity can also be measured by how i chose to deal with it. if i went to the teacher and said, "you know i don't understand where this grade is coming from, i feel like i did well, blah blah blah" i could either have my grade raised and possibly changed, or i could understand why i got the grade i did and learn from it, realizing that i did deserve that grade, but i always had the opportunity to change it, and the professor would see that i was involved in my learning and have a higher opinion of me, etc. i feel that would be the mature way to handle it. i could, of course, say that it was totally unfair and the professor needs to change it, that they are stupid, and all sorts of things. i could refuse to see where i possibly went wrong. in doing this, i would not get my grade changed, i would not learn, and my teacher would lose respect for me.

now, both those possibilities came from the same original "immature" thought. however, had i chosen the first solution, i would have been judged as mature, correct? and the second, as immature?

do you see what i'm saying?

also, i'm not sure how you can judge his thoughts in eclipse, seeing as we didn't see them.....

and i don't think he could have been any more mature in BD. i really don't. if you do, please enlighten me?

and, in general, can't that be said about ALL the characters? that they sometimes act rashly? regardless of their maturity. hell, edward's got over 100 YEARS of maturity behind him, and his "rash" acts FAR outweigh jacob's. and bella, out of the three, is clearly the least mature.

it sounds like you dislike him because he's a seventeen year old....that's a little silly.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby NessieFan » Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:23 pm

As it says in my Signature I have had a change of heart concerning Jacob Black, though I still love edward more I have finnally decided to throw away my negative feelings torwards Jacob and have become Team Switzerland.

In Twilight I was to caught up in the B/E romance to may any attention really to Jacob therefore when New Moon came along and its more him then Edwad I was shocked at the contrast between the two. Both good guys but their personalities so different mainly because of age and just the fact that their different people. I immediatley chose Edward because for one i was already in love with him and for two because Jacob seemed so much more immature then Edward and in a way he was. When Eclipse came out i wanted Edward and Bella to be together so i wanted Jacob completely out of the picture, even if that meant him going into wolf form and never transforming back....but by the end of the book I wanted him to imprint and be happy as long as it was far away from Edward and Bella.

So it surprised me that when BD came out and Jacob stepped into the picture I couldn't feel my usual hate that i held for him. And whatever remaining negative feelings I held for him which were still quite a few were completely erased when i read Jacob's book. By the end of it i actually found myself crying at his expense when he told Edward that he didn't have anything else to give.

So when he imprinted on Renesmee I couldn't help but feel happy because this way Bella didn't have to lose a part of herself, Edward didn't have to live with that guilt and Jacob didn't have to live with the heartbreak. For that I'm glad because all of them desserved a happy ending and any other ending would have only have deen bittersweet.

So to finish up this very long post I admit that i was wrong when I thought of Jacob as nothing but an Arrogant, immature, girlfriend stealer. And as Edward said renesmee could do a lot worse when it comes to guys.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby *Bloodlust* » Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:25 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:first off, jacob and nessie are going to be together....i don't see where you can deny that anymore.


Um...who's denying that Jacob and Nessie are going to be together? :? If you'd read through what I said, you'd realize I was agreeing with cataclysm that Jacob and Nessie's relationship can't take the same kind of route as Bella and Edward because they're two different people. Meaning, they're going to have a romantic relationship, yes, but it's not going to be the same as Bella and Edward because their personalities don't match up the same way.

Yes, I do see what you're saying with your grade analogy, but it doesn't quite match up with the point I was trying to make, which I can see I didn't state clearly enough :| . Also, correct WE could not see his thoughts in Eclipse, but Edward could and Edward was the one stating what he was thinking outloud during the tent scene, where he did stated "I can see that you really do love her".

Once again, I am trying to say that how he reacts in Breaking Dawn isn't so much maturity as it is him having a sense of right and wrong. Of coure he'd protect the Cullens because it was the right thing to do. He didn't like them at first and in that sense, he HAS come a long way. I don't think that would be called "maturity", more like seeing the truth and coming to realize he wasn't seeing things in the right way. Maybe a small part of that is maturity, but in my opinion, not a large part.

it sounds like you dislike him because he's a seventeen year old....that's a little silly.


Out of everything you've said, this one pisses me off the most because it proves you really didn't read what I said. I do not dislike Jacob Black. In all honesty, I've never disliked him. I haven't always liked him, but NEVER have I disliked him. And the anger and frustration I feel with his character is not directly linked to his age. Indirectly, you can make that assumption, but directly, I don't have issues with his being 17[I'm 17 for crying outloud!]. That makes no sense.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby cataclysm » Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:32 pm

*Bloodlust* wrote:snip

I don't think Jacob Black is an immature person, more that I think he has an immature mind; the mind of a 16/17 year old boy. Essentially, his first reaction to a situation is to look at it with the 16/17 year old boy mentality, but then the more "mature" and "truth-seeing" side has to reassess the situation so that he handles whatever come at him[usually the Cullens in some form] in another way. In a sense, I respect that about him. He has to see things twice before he acts. Sometimes he doesn't get to the second view and acts, to what we see, "rashly".


By that criteria we all have 'immature' minds.

I agree that him and Nessie have potential to go all wrong. The reason Bella and Edward can go the path they do with all of their romantic stuff is because of both of their personalities. I think that Nessie has the personality for that to work, but Jacob doesn't. Their relationship CANNOT[better yet, SHOULD NOT] take the same course as Bella and Edward's or that could turn out badly. That same kind of romance has potential to get all twisted.


I hope jacob/nessie's (possible) future romance doesn't take on the same traits as bella/edward's, mostly because I wasn't very enamored with B/E. I'm all for romance, and I know there wil be angst/pain for them. I just hope it's not melodramatic in the way that B/E was melodramatic.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:40 pm

i think (and god do i hope) that "jessie" will be more simple. no less romantic - in fact, in my opinion, more romantic - but so much less mushy. men shouldn't say things that edward does. i know that's sexist and terrible, but i, personally, like my men a little rougher. which is why i like jacob. and nessie seems a little less silly than her mother, so that should be ok.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby cataclysm » Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:43 pm

NessieFan wrote: snip
So it surprised me that when BD came out and Jacob stepped into the picture I couldn't feel my usual hate that i held for him. And whatever remaining negative feelings I held for him which were still quite a few were completely erased when i read Jacob's book. By the end of it i actually found myself crying at his expense when he told Edward that he didn't have anything else to give.

So when he imprinted on Renesmee I couldn't help but feel happy because this way Bella didn't have to lose a part of herself, Edward didn't have to live with that guilt and Jacob didn't have to live with the heartbreak. For that I'm glad because all of them desserved a happy ending and any other ending would have only have deen bittersweet.
snip



Why Nessiefan, how mature of you. I think you're probably way less biased (and way more mature) than I am ;) . Seriously, I'm glad you found some jacob love.
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