Rosalie Hale

[chowzinha]

So, I was thinking if Bella did die from her pregnancy by the time Edward has already discovered that Nessie is a very intelligent being and has started caring for her, does anyone think that Edward would actually fight Rosalie if she happened to get all motherly and try to keep Nessie for herself? Does anyone think that they would actually break into a physical fight?

[holdingoutforjacob]

Chowinzha, please remember that positive discussion is not the only constructive discussion, and just because eclipserox and myself don't like Rosalie and were saying something negative does not mean that we were "trashing" her. i don't recall anyone trying to persuade anyone to dislike rose, or saying randomly bad things about her. this thread HAS gone there before, and this is not what that looks like. trust me.

it's true that all the characters have flaws. but they aren't all mean. and i really think that a lot in life comes down to whether you are a good person or not.

i think nessie is perfect for rose, because she grows so rapidly, and she's so mature, that rose doesn't really HAVE to be that much of a caretaker. she stopped being an infant before rosalie could get bored of the infant phase, which is what i think would REALLY drive her nuts. she can just play with her and have her pretty little bouncy baby, then give her back. Rose is the perfect aunt. Not mother.

in response to what Jazz Girl said, i couldn't have said it better myself.

Rose posed no threat to Nessie, but i'm not sure why that even came up. no one implied she would be. why would rose want to hurt nessie - nessie's what she wants most.

i'm not sure that rosalie HAS really proven she has a heart outside of what she wants. oh wait, no nevermind. she did one time, with Bella.

I've said it before though - I can understand and set aside Rosalie's attitude toward Bella before Eclipse. What I can't abide is her actions towards all of them, and her cruelty towards people who don't deserve it.

[eclipserox]

So, I was thinking if Bella did die from her pregnancy by the time Edward has already discovered that Nessie is a very intelligent being and has started caring for her, does anyone think that Edward would actually fight Rosalie if she happened to get all motherly and try to keep Nessie for herself? Does anyone think that they would actually break into a physical fight?

Even if Edward heard Renesmee's thoughts and knew she was intelligent and loved Bella, I don't think he would be able to take care of her if Bella died as a result of the pregnancy. I think a part of Edward would blame Renesmee. A part of Edward would blame himself for being a monster, and Renesmee killing Bella would be confirmation that he was in fact a monster and couldn't produce a "good" baby. But, even if I'm wrong about this and Edward didn't blame Renesmee at all, it would still be too difficult for him. He would still be the "burning man," even more upset because his worst fear had come true. He would be absolutely devastated. Renesmee would remind him of Bella--her eyes were exactly the same. He would not be able to handle it. And, he knew Rosalie truly cared for the baby and wanted to be a mother. I think he would let Rosalie care for the baby, knowing she would be well taken care of. I'm sure Esme would play a role in the baby's life as well. And, Edward would probably go back to Italy to die and be with Bella.

[Jazz Girl]

So, I was thinking if Bella did die from her pregnancy by the time Edward has already discovered that Nessie is a very intelligent being and has started caring for her, does anyone think that Edward would actually fight Rosalie if she happened to get all motherly and try to keep Nessie for herself? Does anyone think that they would actually break into a physical fight?

Even if Edward heard Renesmee's thoughts and knew she was intelligent and loved Bella, I don't think he would be able to take care of her if Bella died as a result of the pregnancy. I think a part of Edward would blame Renesmee. A part of Edward would blame himself for being a monster, and Renesmee killing Bella would be confirmation that he was in fact a monster and couldn't produce a "good" baby. But, even if I'm wrong about this and Edward didn't blame Renesmee at all, it would still be too difficult for him. He would still be the "burning man," even more upset because his worst fear had come true. He would be absolutely devastated. Renesmee would remind him of Bella--her eyes were exactly the same. He would not be able to handle it. And, he knew Rosalie truly cared for the baby and wanted to be a mother. I think he would let Rosalie care for the baby, knowing she would be well taken care of. I'm sure Esme would play a role in the baby's life as well. And, Edward would probably go back to Italy to die and be with Bella.

EclipseRox, I both agree and disagree. I think you are absolutely right about Edward's reaction to Bella's death. While I believe completely that Edward loved Renesmee once he was able to hear her thoughts, understand who and what she is. And, a part of me wants to believe that he would stay and be her father, but I know too well that without Bella in his world, his world ends. So, yes, he would, knowing that Rose and Esme and the rest of the family for that matter would take wonderful care of his daughter, bury his wife and then go to Italy to join her in death.

The only part of your reply that gives me pause is where you say a part Edward might blame Renesmee. I just can't agree to that part. Once he reads her thoughts, sees her intelligence and her love for he and, especially, Bella, he knows she isn't a monster. I don't think any part of him could blame her in any way. He would take all of the blame for himself

[eclipserox]

Jazz Girl-

I get what you're saying,and you may be right. I think Edward loved Renesmee. He started to love her the first time he heard her thoughts. He couldn't not love anyone who loved Bella. But, can he continue to love someone who killed Bella? Until he heard her thoughts, he believed "the fetus" was going to kill Bella. Of course, he also blamed himself for impregnating her. But, part of him blamed "the fetus." Did him hearing Renesmee's thoughts completely change his mind, so that no blame was left? I don't know the answer. I think it is a horrible thought that a father could blame an innocent baby for it's mother's death and I definitely don't think Edward is a horrible person. But, until he heard her thoughts, he was blaming the baby (as well as himself). I don't even know if he would necessarily BLAME Renesmee, but can he truly love someone he associates with Bella's death?

[chowzinha]

Jazz Girl-

I get what you're saying,and you may be right. I think Edward loved Renesmee. He started to love her the first time he heard her thoughts. He couldn't not love anyone who loved Bella. But, can he continue to love someone who killed Bella? Until he heard her thoughts, he believed "the fetus" was going to kill Bella. Of course, he also blamed himself for impregnating her. But, part of him blamed "the fetus." Did him hearing Renesmee's thoughts completely change his mind, so that no blame was left? I don't know the answer. I think it is a horrible thought that a father could blame an innocent baby for it's mother's death and I definitely don't think Edward is a horrible person. But, until he heard her thoughts, he was blaming the baby (as well as himself). I don't even know if he would necessarily BLAME Renesmee, but can he truly love someone he associates with Bella's death?

I think that Edward being able to hear Nessie plays a really important role in this part. Maybe he would blame Nessie, but how could he still blame her if he hears Nessie and sees that Nessie loves Bella so much that she would not understand how she was responsible to her mother's death. And wouldn't Nessie blame herself too? She's smart enough for that. Remember when Edwards says that Nessie was eager to see Bella from the moment she was born? So think about what would Nessie feel if she came to the world hoping to see a person she already loves from inside the womb, and finds this person dead.

I know that I started the question, but with your people's replies, it just made me think of all this... aren't discussions fun??

[holdingoutforjacob]

I think he would love her, but I don't think he would be able to care for her. I think he would give her to Esme, or maybe Jacob (assuming he imprints on her still). He would NOT give her to Rosalie. I don't think he'd ever speak to Rosalie again.

I think he would probably have Esme raise her until she was old enough to be with Jacob.

[eclipserox]

Chowzinha-

Oh, I agree that Renesmee would feel terrible. From inside Bella, she already realized she was hurting her. She thought that she was going to try not to hurt Bella anymore. She might have seen Bella's death as a failure on her part, and she would have known that she played a role. And then, assuming Edward would in fact go to Italy to die and leave Renesmee with his family--I don't think anyone disagreed that he would do this--she might even blame herself for Edward's death. It would be horrible. As I insinuated, I don't think it's right to blame a baby for the mother's death and I don't think a child should have to worry that they caused either of their parents' deaths. Renesmee was good at detecting people's feelings, too, so she would probably realize how sad all of the Cullens were.

Holding out for Jacob-

I understand why you think that. I definitely don't think Edward was ever Rosalie's biggest fan. Most of the time he didn't seem to care for her. And, during BD, he seemed very unhappy with her, and rightly so, for interfering with the pregnancy and hoping Bella would die so that she could have the baby (which we pretty much know from Jacob's book, if anyone questions this, please find Jazz Girl's recent post where she quoted the exact parts). But, just as he would hear her thoughts that she wanted Bella to die so she could get the baby, he could probably also tell that she wanted to be a mother and would try to take care of the baby. Now, I agree with you that she probably wouldn't actually be a very good mother. Still, Edward would know that Rosalie would try. When Edward was fighting to save Bella and believed it was a strong possibility she would die, he let Rosalie take the baby. He could have said no, or told Jasper or someone else to take the baby if he really did not want Rosalie near her. And, all of the Cullens live together--all of them would be part of Renesmee's life. I think no matter who Edward left her with, both Esme and Rosalie would be the most involved, including if he specifically left her with Esme. I don't see Esme physically preventing Rosalie from caring for Renesmee.

[chowzinha]

Holding out for Jacob-

I understand why you think that. I definitely don't think Edward was ever Rosalie's biggest fan. Most of the time he didn't seem to care for her. And, during BD, he seemed very unhappy with her, and rightly so, for interfering with the pregnancy and hoping Bella would die so that she could have the baby (which we pretty much know from Jacob's book, if anyone questions this, please find Jazz Girl's recent post where she quoted the exact parts). But, just as he would hear her thoughts that she wanted Bella to die so she could get the baby, he could probably also tell that she wanted to be a mother and would try to take care of the baby. Now, I agree with you that she probably wouldn't actually be a very good mother. Still, Edward would know that Rosalie would try. When Edward was fighting to save Bella and believed it was a strong possibility she would die, he let Rosalie take the baby. He could have said no, or told Jasper or someone else to take the baby if he really did not want Rosalie near her. And, all of the Cullens live together--all of them would be part of Renesmee's life. I think no matter who Edward left her with, both Esme and Rosalie would be the most involved, including if he specifically left her with Esme. I don't see Esme physically preventing Rosalie from caring for Renesmee.

To respond to your question about Rose's motivations, we actually do get those thoughts from Rose...sort of. Here is the passage from BD that forms a huge chunk of my interpretation of Rosalie's thoughts.
"I realized then--when I heard how her voice got all lovey-dovey as she said the word baby -- that
Blondie would be in line with anything that helped the little life-sucking monster. Was that what was going
on, the mystery factor that was bonding the two of them? Was Rosalie after the kid?
From the corner of my eye, I saw Edward nod once, absently, not looking in my direction. But I knew he was
answering my questions.
Huh. I wouldn't have thought the ice-cold Barbie would have a maternal side. So much for protecting Bella - Rosalie'd probably jam the tube down Bella's throat herself.
Edward's mouth mashed into a hard line, and I knew I was right again." (BD, p 240)

Having read what eclipserox said, I pulled the quote from Jazz Girl . I just want something clarified... did Rose actually WISH for Bella to die so she could keep the baby, or she just did not care whether Bella lives of die to be with the baby? I think there's a slight difference between the two, because if she did not care whether Bella lives or dies, then she just don't care for Bella (because her interest above all others'), and if she did wish for Bella's death, then she would just be a monster who wished to harm Bella to benefit from it. And honestly, I don't think that Rose wished for Bella's death, she just didn't care. I do not disagree that in the past, Rose was convinced that she had to kill Bella so she could stay in Forks and all, but that doesn't mean that this part of her has not changed. She might not like Bella, but it is a completely different thing to not like someone and wish to kill someone.

[eclipserox]

Chowzinha-

I'm interpreting that quote as Rosalie did want Bella to die, not just that she didn't care whether Bella lived or died. This part in particular:

Huh. I wouldn't have thought the ice-cold Barbie would have a maternal side. So much for protecting Bella - Rosalie'd probably jam the tube down Bella's throat herself.
Edward's mouth mashed into a hard line, and I knew I was right again." (BD, p 240).

Rosalie would jam the tube down Bella's throat herself->Rosalie would kill Bella herself.

Now, I don't think Rosalie really would try to kill Bella. Obviously, Edward would stop her if she tried. But, I do interpret that as Rosalie was hoping Bella would die and she would get the baby.

Even if you're right, whether Rosalie liked or disliked Bella, I don't think it's OK to not care whether the love of your brother's life lives or dies. Even if you really can't stand your sister-in-law, do you ever really not care if they live? Do you not care at all how much it would hurt your brother? This is part of why I don't like Rosalie. She is so selfish, she doesn't even care about her brother's happiness. I don't care if she likes Bella. I don't like Bella a lot of the time. But to want Bella dead is horrible. To be willing to sacrifice Bella and Edward's happiness just to get her hands on a baby is horrible. Rosalie knew what losing Bella would do to Edward. She knew last time she told Edward Bella was dead (in NM), Edward tried to get himself killed.