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Re: Rosalie Hale

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:57 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:HoldingOutFor Jacob, I completely agree with you in that Jacob did have a sort of "claim" on Ness (I use that because I can't think of a better word). And, I think his was much more legitimate than Rose's, even if she is family. But, I think what it comes down to is that Edward absolutely has the right to be pissed at both of them. He is fighting for Bella's (Ness' mother's) life, trying to keep her alive to be able to mother her daughter. And, where are Jake and Rose? Downstairs fighting over Ness like she's a new toy given to brother and sister. Yes, someone needed to be caring for her. But, it just seems to me that both of them were so completely selfish and inconsiderate in these moments that it snaps my teeth together. This, together again with that idea of anyone else trying to interupt that bond between parent and child and I wouldn't have blamed Edward if he'd b#(@* slapped them both!! [/color]


Ok, I would totally agree with you but for two things.

Edward DID have a right to be annoyed with Jacob, IF he had just left Bella for dead and instead gone to see the baby. But first of all, that is hardly what happened. Jacob left the room because he believed Bella was dead, and he set off to kill the thing that had done it. Now, that wasn't right either, but it wasn't selfish, nor inconsiderate. It just was. Then, when he got downstairs and imprinted, OF COURSE he didn't think about Bella. We are all intelligent enough to know what imprinting does to a person - gravity shifts. All he could think about was Nessie, and I'm sure one of the main things he thought about was getting away from the awful, and, in his mind, murderous creature she was with. Think about it - your entire world centeres around a helpless baby, who is in the arms of someone who just basically backed the murder of someone you loved, and her brother loved, just so she could get what she wanted. Would you be ok with that??

Second of all, that's not why Edward was mad at Jacob. Edward was mad at Jacob because he imprinted on her.
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Re: Rosalie Hale

Postby TillyWhitlock » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:09 pm

Rose... What can I say about Rose?

I think that Rose is by far the most interesting character that I didn't like to begin with. As soon as I read the books I loved ALL the Cullens, except for Rose. I couldn't stand her. She was not my favorite person. I think the reason why I didn't like her was because she didn't want to let Bella in. I thought she was vain and I thought she was completely shallow. I couldn't stand the fact that she felt she needed to be worshiped. She was the most annoying character to me. I hated her more than I hated the Nomads in Twilight (And I couldn't stand them either)

However, the fourth or fifth time through the book, I could see the writing between the lines with Rosalie. Especially in Breaking Dawn. I could see the reasons behind the things that she did. Everyone is so quick to jump on her that she was trying to kill Bella and keep the baby for herself. She really wasn't. It was something that Rose wanted. She wanted a family. Bella was getting that family, but it was killing her in the process. Rose stood by Bella because if Rose had been able to have a child, she would have wanted someone there to help her.

it was almost as if Bella knew that by running to Rose, nothing would harm her or the baby. There was no way that Emmett was going to let Edward hurt Rose, and Rose was the biggest problem in getting to Bella. It was sweet of her to finally see Bella as an equal. As soon as I opened my eyes to her, I loved her.
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Re: Rosalie Hale

Postby Jazz Girl » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:58 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:HoldingOutFor Jacob, I completely agree with you in that Jacob did have a sort of "claim" on Ness (I use that because I can't think of a better word). And, I think his was much more legitimate than Rose's, even if she is family. But, I think what it comes down to is that Edward absolutely has the right to be pissed at both of them. He is fighting for Bella's (Ness' mother's) life, trying to keep her alive to be able to mother her daughter. And, where are Jake and Rose? Downstairs fighting over Ness like she's a new toy given to brother and sister. Yes, someone needed to be caring for her. But, it just seems to me that both of them were so completely selfish and inconsiderate in these moments that it snaps my teeth together. This, together again with that idea of anyone else trying to interupt that bond between parent and child and I wouldn't have blamed Edward if he'd b#(@* slapped them both!! [/color]


Ok, I would totally agree with you but for two things.

Edward DID have a right to be annoyed with Jacob, IF he had just left Bella for dead and instead gone to see the baby. But first of all, that is hardly what happened. Jacob left the room because he believed Bella was dead, and he set off to kill the thing that had done it. Now, that wasn't right either, but it wasn't selfish, nor inconsiderate. It just was. Then, when he got downstairs and imprinted, OF COURSE he didn't think about Bella. We are all intelligent enough to know what imprinting does to a person - gravity shifts. All he could think about was Nessie, and I'm sure one of the main things he thought about was getting away from the awful, and, in his mind, murderous creature she was with. Think about it - your entire world centeres around a helpless baby, who is in the arms of someone who just basically backed the murder of someone you loved, and her brother loved, just so she could get what she wanted. Would you be ok with that??

Second of all, that's not why Edward was mad at Jacob. Edward was mad at Jacob because he imprinted on her.


Let me clarify two points, and I think you will see we are of the same mind.

1) In my discussion timeline, I am not referring to the initial confrontation between Rose and Jake when he imprints and Edward is literally upstairs fighting for Bella's life. I am referring to the ongoing confrontations they seem to be having, when Edward says to Carlisle, "I don't know which side to take. I'd love to flog them both." Remember, I firmly believe that Edward believes, right up until the moment Bella wakes, that he might be losing her and that he didn't do enough to saver her life through transformation. So, it is that time, when the threat is somewhat removed and Rose and Jake are bickering like 1st graders with new toys over who gets to feed or burp or hold or whatever Ness. As far as Jake's feelings towards Rose, I agree completely with you that he would see her as a threat to Ness. But, it is also pretty clear that Ness likes Rose, is very comfortable with her. So, once Ness decides she wants to be with Rose, than Jake could really care less about his personal loathing of her, if she makes Ness happy. Sure he still revels in irritating the crap out of her, but he knows Ness loves her so he lets it go. But, in that moment, that is what is irritating the crap out of Edward about the both of them.

2) Edward is annoyed that Jacob imprinted on his daughter. Just like any father of a daughter secretly harbors a resentment against every boy who looks at their daughter, has the gall to think they are good enough to love their daughter. That piece is part and parcel of being a father. Just like Jake couldn't help love Ness, Edward can't help being irritated with him.
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Re: Rosalie Hale

Postby TillyWhitlock » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:43 pm

[/quote]1) In my discussion timeline, I am not referring to the initial confrontation between Rose and Jake when he imprints and Edward is literally upstairs fighting for Bella's life. I am referring to the ongoing confrontations they seem to be having, when Edward says to Carlisle, "I don't know which side to take. I'd love to flog them both." Remember, I firmly believe that Edward believes, right up until the moment Bella wakes, that he might be losing her and that he didn't do enough to saver her life through transformation. So, it is that time, when the threat is somewhat removed and Rose and Jake are bickering like 1st graders with new toys over who gets to feed or burp or hold or whatever Ness. As far as Jake's feelings towards Rose, I agree completely with you that he would see her as a threat to Ness. But, it is also pretty clear that Ness likes Rose, is very comfortable with her. So, once Ness decides she wants to be with Rose, than Jake could really care less about his personal loathing of her, if she makes Ness happy. Sure he still revels in irritating the crap out of her, but he knows Ness loves her so he lets it go. But, in that moment, that is what is irritating the crap out of Edward about the both of them.

2) Edward is annoyed that Jacob imprinted on his daughter. Just like any father of a daughter secretly harbors a resentment against every boy who looks at their daughter, has the gall to think they are good enough to love their daughter. That piece is part and parcel of being a father. Just like Jake couldn't help love Ness, Edward can't help being irritated with him. [/color][/quote]


I completely agree with you both. As far as the situation between the three of them, I think that Edward is completely in the right for wanting to flog them both. They both deserve it. I'll go ahead and say that I think Jacob deserves the flogging more than Rose, but the reason I think he deserves it more is because Jacob was supposed to be Bella's best friend. Shouldn't he care about Bella? Yes, I know he had his responsibilities with the pack and his ties to Ness. However, Rose wasn't nearly as close to Bella as Jake, Edward, Alice, or even Emmett. There are pleanty of people to take care of her while they go check on Bella. Yes, the baby may be a blind spot for Alice, but she loves her. Ness could have even been given to Jazz and it would have been fine.

I see it more in Rose's character not to go check on Bella simply because she knew that Edward wasn't thrilled with her over the entire pregnancy thing. Rose wouldn't go apologize for protecting Bella because she didn't see anything wrong in it. I can understand why Rose might not go check on them to see how they are doing. But they were both in the wrong.
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Re: Rosalie Hale

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:56 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:
holdingoutforjacob wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:HoldingOutFor Jacob, I completely agree with you in that Jacob did have a sort of "claim" on Ness (I use that because I can't think of a better word). And, I think his was much more legitimate than Rose's, even if she is family. But, I think what it comes down to is that Edward absolutely has the right to be pissed at both of them. He is fighting for Bella's (Ness' mother's) life, trying to keep her alive to be able to mother her daughter. And, where are Jake and Rose? Downstairs fighting over Ness like she's a new toy given to brother and sister. Yes, someone needed to be caring for her. But, it just seems to me that both of them were so completely selfish and inconsiderate in these moments that it snaps my teeth together. This, together again with that idea of anyone else trying to interupt that bond between parent and child and I wouldn't have blamed Edward if he'd b#(@* slapped them both!! [/color]


Ok, I would totally agree with you but for two things.

Edward DID have a right to be annoyed with Jacob, IF he had just left Bella for dead and instead gone to see the baby. But first of all, that is hardly what happened. Jacob left the room because he believed Bella was dead, and he set off to kill the thing that had done it. Now, that wasn't right either, but it wasn't selfish, nor inconsiderate. It just was. Then, when he got downstairs and imprinted, OF COURSE he didn't think about Bella. We are all intelligent enough to know what imprinting does to a person - gravity shifts. All he could think about was Nessie, and I'm sure one of the main things he thought about was getting away from the awful, and, in his mind, murderous creature she was with. Think about it - your entire world centeres around a helpless baby, who is in the arms of someone who just basically backed the murder of someone you loved, and her brother loved, just so she could get what she wanted. Would you be ok with that??

Second of all, that's not why Edward was mad at Jacob. Edward was mad at Jacob because he imprinted on her.


Let me clarify two points, and I think you will see we are of the same mind.

1) In my discussion timeline, I am not referring to the initial confrontation between Rose and Jake when he imprints and Edward is literally upstairs fighting for Bella's life. I am referring to the ongoing confrontations they seem to be having, when Edward says to Carlisle, "I don't know which side to take. I'd love to flog them both." Remember, I firmly believe that Edward believes, right up until the moment Bella wakes, that he might be losing her and that he didn't do enough to saver her life through transformation. So, it is that time, when the threat is somewhat removed and Rose and Jake are bickering like 1st graders with new toys over who gets to feed or burp or hold or whatever Ness. As far as Jake's feelings towards Rose, I agree completely with you that he would see her as a threat to Ness. But, it is also pretty clear that Ness likes Rose, is very comfortable with her. So, once Ness decides she wants to be with Rose, than Jake could really care less about his personal loathing of her, if she makes Ness happy. Sure he still revels in irritating the crap out of her, but he knows Ness loves her so he lets it go. But, in that moment, that is what is irritating the crap out of Edward about the both of them.

2) Edward is annoyed that Jacob imprinted on his daughter. Just like any father of a daughter secretly harbors a resentment against every boy who looks at their daughter, has the gall to think they are good enough to love their daughter. That piece is part and parcel of being a father. Just like Jake couldn't help love Ness, Edward can't help being irritated with him.


I see now. I understand that that's why Edward should be irritated with Jacob, and that IS irritating. Although I think he definitely has more cause to be focused on Nessie rather than Bella.

I do think, however, that consideration is something that's reciprocal. I don't really think we can blame someone for being inconsiderate to someone if that person has been inconsiderate to them. And I think that Edward's attitude towards Jacob about imprinting really WAS inconsiderate.

I agree that it's perfectly understandable, even "right" for Edward to feel annoyed about the situation, irritated beyond belief, feel like it's unfair, etc. But I do not think it's right for him to blame Jacob for that, and take it out on him. Especially since this isn't a normal circumstance. It's not like he has the "gall" to think he's good enough for Nessie, I think he feels quite the opposite - that he's not good enough. I think that Edward, of all people, should realize this. And I think that it's wrong of him to act on it. You can feel whatever you want - how you act determines your character.
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Re: Rosalie Hale

Postby debussygirl » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:37 pm

Okay, so I had a sort of epiphany about Rosalie today. I don't know if it's right, but here it goes.
I think that after NM and Bella saved Edward after Rose's mistake, I think that Rosalie sort of began seeing her as a sister then. When it came time to vote, Rosalie even said that she didn't have anything against Bella being her sister, but it was because she didn't want Bella to chose to be a vampire, because it was making Rose miserable. Which makes me think that she cared about Bella. Then again, in EC, she explained herself to Bella. Which shows that she first wants Bella to understand her, and understand not to chose to be a vampire, because to Rosalie that is the worst fate. And you wouldn't want someone that you cared about making that mistake. Then in BD, when Bella was getting ready for the wedding, Rosalie offered her service to help, which shows that she was accepting Bella as her sister.
I'm not saying that Rosalie loves Bella to death and would lay down her life for her, but I think that Rose has more feelings than may meet the eye.
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Re: Rosalie Hale

Postby TillyWhitlock » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:16 pm

debussygirl wrote:Okay, so I had a sort of epiphany about Rosalie today. I don't know if it's right, but here it goes.
I think that after NM and Bella saved Edward after Rose's mistake, I think that Rosalie sort of began seeing her as a sister then. When it came time to vote, Rosalie even said that she didn't have anything against Bella being her sister, but it was because she didn't want Bella to chose to be a vampire, because it was making Rose miserable. Which makes me think that she cared about Bella. Then again, in EC, she explained herself to Bella. Which shows that she first wants Bella to understand her, and understand not to chose to be a vampire, because to Rosalie that is the worst fate. And you wouldn't want someone that you cared about making that mistake. Then in BD, when Bella was getting ready for the wedding, Rosalie offered her service to help, which shows that she was accepting Bella as her sister.
I'm not saying that Rosalie loves Bella to death and would lay down her life for her, but I think that Rose has more feelings than may meet the eye.


I completely agree with you. It almost seems like Rose sees that there is more to Bella than just her love for Edward. Bella went to Italy to save Edward, and to fix Rose's mistake. Rose didn't think much of Bella until Bella fixed Rose's mistake. Bella is willing to risk her own life to keep the Cullens together, and Rose sees that finally.
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Re: Rosalie Hale

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:51 pm

I agree. And that's why I think Rose is willing to tell Bella her story. She sees Bella as "worth" knowing the other side to the fairy tale. BUT I don't think for a minute that any sort of "sisterhood" is why she agreed to help Bella in BD.
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Re: Rosalie Hale

Postby akire » Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:23 am

Maybe "sisterhood" not in the sense that Bella is married to her brother, but in the sense that Rosalie knew exactly what it felt like to want a baby as badly as Bella did. IMHO, the nature of Rose's personality is such that she just isn't able to love others as much as, say, Alice is. Not necessarily a bad thing, just a part of who she is. So she isn't able to relate to Bella until Bella has made a choice she herself has made.
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Re: Rosalie Hale

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:20 pm

akire wrote:Maybe "sisterhood" not in the sense that Bella is married to her brother, but in the sense that Rosalie knew exactly what it felt like to want a baby as badly as Bella did. IMHO, the nature of Rose's personality is such that she just isn't able to love others as much as, say, Alice is. Not necessarily a bad thing, just a part of who she is. So she isn't able to relate to Bella until Bella has made a choice she herself has made.


I get what you're saying and I think you're right. But her decision to help Bella wasn't made on any sort of relatability . It was made for Rosalie's benefit.
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