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Re: Jacob Black

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:26 pm

twilight1909 wrote:I don't buy that argument. Jacob and Bella go back and forth about who's more beyond their years. They both claim to be mature for their age.

"And what's Edward's motivation to be with her anyways?"...only his passionate never-ending love. Edward explains to Bella at the end of NM that he will never leave her again, unless that's what she wants, because he's not strong enough to do it. He stops drawing the line for what's right and wrong when it comes to his love for her and what's safe for her. Jacob is on the outside looking in but acts like he knows what's best for Bella.

If Jacob should have been with Bella, he would've imprinted on her. I find it odd and irrelevant that people fight for these two to be together. He's meant to be with her child. You know, the one she has with Edward.


why is edward's love a valid motivation but not jacob's?

jacob was, above and beyond anything else, bella's best friend. there's absolutely no denying that. he wasn't being selfish in that, he wasn't being anything edward wasn't.

Oh, and by the way, what "extreme pain" did he force on her NM????
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby SenorGimp » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:50 pm

He never wanted to force anything on her. Not even his presence (although that kinda went out the window when he starting coming in her window. LOL).

hilarity, mara jade, absolute hilarity!
lol
And I too am curious about this alleged 'extreme pain' jacob put bella through in new moon.
I've got no recollections of any of it, depending, i guess, on your definition of extreme pain?
hmmm
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby Mara Jade Cullen » Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:11 pm

twilight1909 wrote:I don't buy that argument. Jacob and Bella go back and forth about who's more beyond their years. They both claim to be mature for their age.

"And what's Edward's motivation to be with her anyways?"...only his passionate never-ending love. Edward explains to Bella at the end of NM that he will never leave her again, unless that's what she wants, because he's not strong enough to do it. He stops drawing the line for what's right and wrong when it comes to his love for her and what's safe for her. Jacob is on the outside looking in but acts like he knows what's best for Bella.

If Jacob should have been with Bella, he would've imprinted on her. I find it odd and irrelevant that people fight for these two to be together. He's meant to be with her child. You know, the one she has with Edward.


Please look at my post again.
I agree that Bella and Edward are meant for each other. Like she was designed specifically to make Edward take notice and want to take care of her.
And I agree that Jacob is not meant for her--that he would have imprinted on her if that were the case.

I'm not agruing that Jacob was right. He clearly wasn't seeing how things really were. But he wasn't privy to all of the events and the thoughts of Bella and Edward like we are. He only got a glimpse of them when Edward opened up to him in Fire and Ice. I'm just trying to get into his head a bit to understand his POV. Not arguing the validity of it.

How would Jacob be able to see Edward's "passionate never-ending love"? Yes. We all know Edward's motivations and thoughts--why he did what he did and that only showed that he loved her almost to extremes to be able to sacrifice like that for what he thought was her benefit. But Jacob probably didn't know or couldn't see that from the outside of the relationship like he was.

And despite Jacob's bid for "points" on maturity--well, I don't buy that one. Perhaps he can get points for being up to like 18 instead of 16. But very much still adolescent in mindset.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby RebeccaCullen » Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:54 pm

twilight1909 wrote:I don't buy that argument. Jacob and Bella go back and forth about who's more beyond their years. They both claim to be mature for their age.


To me they did come off as a little childish at times. Like you said if they were mature beyond their years, Jake, IMO, wouldn't have tried to force himself on Bella. He would have accepted that Bella and Edward would be together.

Mara Jade Cullen wrote:And despite Jacob's bid for "points" on maturity--well, I don't buy that one. Perhaps he can get points for being up to like 18 instead of 16. But very much still adolescent in mindset.


I agree. Jake does come off as slightly older than he is with the way he acts, but he does still have some child like attitudes, IMO.

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Oh, and by the way, what "extreme pain" did he force on her NM????


Hm, from what I can recall, the only pain he put her through was after he turned wolf and was told he wasn't allowed to see her any more by Sam, and when he took her bike to Charlie after Edward's return. But I think that the first did cause her extreme pain because she had just lost Edward and he was helping her mend. When he left, it was like Edward leaving her all over again and she didn't want to deal with that pian again.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby SenorGimp » Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:56 pm

I understood your post mara jade, and am actually quite glad for it...
it's good to see that at least someone tries to see things from Jacob's POV, since almost everyone else just wants to 'jacob-bash' all the time.
It's the same on here, as it is on the bella thread, and the edward thread as well...
Why should all three threads be dedicated to invalidating and shunning jacob, when he did so much for Bella, and endured so much in general, throughout the series?
I at least think the Jacob thread should be more designated to discussions about JACOB, not Jacob and Bella, not Jacob and Edward, not Jacob and Renesmee, and definitely no more of these Edward and Bella posts (although I'll admit I'm responsible for a few of those, sorry) that seem to be dominating the thread.
Let's Discuss Jacob... PLEASE!!
I've already put ideas out there for how to steer this conversation in a different direction, but I guess those were ignored or else skimmed over without being given thought, so I will post them again, and maybe capitalization will help to drive the point home?

WE SHOULD BE DISCUSSING JACOB AND THE THINGS CONCERNING HIM, OF WHICH THE LOVE TRIANGLE HE WAS INVOLVED IN IS NOT THE ONLY ONE. LET'S DISCUSS THE DYNAMICS OF HIS PACK, HIS ENFORCED SUBSERVIENCE TO SAM, THE RESULTING SEPARATION OF HIM FROM THE PACK, AND THE RESULT OF THAT SEPARATION BRINGING OTHERS WITH HIM TO FORM HIS OWN PACK!!! PLEASE!

Okay, no more CAPS LOCK... I'll start
Although I appreciate the weight of the 'office' Sam holds, and all of the difficult decisions he had to make as alpha for the pack, I disagree with the impunity with which he threw around his 'double-timbre' alpha command.
I know that the ability to do so is essential in maintaining pack unity, but he used it for things that were far beyond driven (pantera, yeah!) by the actual needs of the pack!!
I also found his treatment of Leah, his utter disregard for the amount of pain she had to endure by having loved him, lost him, and now having to share her thoughts about him with him and all the other boys, to be utterly disgusting, and from the moment I found out about the way he acts like none of it ever happened, my appreciation for and understanding of Sam dwindled to next to nothing...
I think Jacob makes a fine pack leader, as he is very hesitant to use his alpha command without absolute need (infact, I think he says at one point that he will never take anyone's will away from them, while trying to prove a point to sam), and does what he feels to be right, while offering his pack a choice in whether or not they feel his decisions are sound and want to be a part of them...
I'll leave off here for now, and hope that you guys (gals, whatever) will follow my train of thought to more Jacob-oriented subjects, as I am literally getting a headache from having to stay on the subject of the Jacob/Bella/Edward love triangle in every thread that I visit...
So please, help me change the subject...
Thank you for your time.
= )...
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby RebeccaCullen » Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:04 pm

Aplha!Jacob was so kind to Leah after all that had happened with Sam. They understood each other as they both lost someone that they had loved to someone else. As much as Jake didn't want her around she did let him see where Rose was coming from when it came to the baby and being a genetic dead end.

I do think that it was cool of him not to force any member of his pack to do anything that they didn't want to do. I think he makes a great Alpha.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby SarahGoddard » Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:45 pm

RebeccaCullen wrote:
I do think that it was cool of him not to force any member of his pack to do anything that they didn't want to do. I think he makes a great Alpha.


Completley agree. Shows a real sense of maturity and very strong leadership qualities for him to do that. He genuinly cares about the welfare of his pack as individuals whereas I think Sam only ever worried about the welfare of "the pack".

How old do you think Jacob should be (emotionally - lets leave physical features out of this dispite how much older we all know he looks!) I'm reckoning on about 18/19 - MAYBE 20. He is at least equal to Bella in maturity and in some ways more so - he loses points for when he isnt (being quite selfish about his feelings and wanting her for himself is only to be expected of a 16yr old in love).
I say he's equal to her or more because of New Moon. He really did hold her together - also he knew her so well, in little things like "Bella doesnt listen to music" even though she never told him that - brilliant!

Just a quick note as this is my first post on this thread (still quite a newbie) and I want to chuck my 2 pennys worth in without changing the discussion of the thread again: I can proudly say Team Edward as I see him through Bellas eyes. However when I think about who I would choose it wouldnt be Mr. Cullen... (on personality/looks etc - not undeniable inescapable love - just if they were two "normal" guys!)
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby RebeccaCullen » Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:53 pm

SarahGoddard wrote:
How old do you think Jacob should be (emotionally - lets leave physical features out of this dispite how much older we all know he looks!) I'm reckoning on about 18/19 - MAYBE 20. He is at least equal to Bella in maturity and in some ways more so - he loses points for when he isnt (being quite selfish about his feelings and wanting her for himself is only to be expected of a 16yr old in love).


He does come off emotionally older then a 16 year old boy when he isn't acting like a little child when it comes to Bella and the Cullens, I'll give him that, but in other ways he does come off a tad childish IMO.

SarahGoddard wrote:
RebeccaCullen wrote:
I do think that it was cool of him not to force any member of his pack to do anything that they didn't want to do. I think he makes a great Alpha.


Completley agree. Shows a real sense of maturity and very strong leadership qualities for him to do that. He genuinly cares about the welfare of his pack as individuals whereas I think Sam only ever worried about the welfare of "the pack".

IMO, he took on leadership pretty well for a 16 year old in Breaking Dawn when it came to his pack, where as Sam had been nearly 20 and hated it. Jake may have hated being a wolf, but when it came time to protect the innocent, he was in the right mindset compared to Sam.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby Wingtear » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:20 pm

Anyone but me wonder what will happen with Sam's pack when he stops phasing? Will they automatically be transferred to Jacob? He is, after all the "true" alpha...
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby twilight1909 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:26 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:why is edward's love a valid motivation but not jacob's?

Oh, and by the way, what "extreme pain" did he force on her NM????



Because Bella is WITH Edward. When did I ever say Jacob forced extreme pain on her? You all either misunderstood or took my words out of context.

twilight1909 wrote:Bella and Edward are beyond happy and complete together. Why is Jacob so insistent on ruining that for her? Causing her that extreme suffering she endured in NM? Because he LOVES her?? That's very selfish. Jacob could never replace Edward for her.


I guess I should have said that differently. Ruining that for her is what would cause the pain Bella endured in NM. Edward's absence caused her that suffering...not Jacob. He was there for her when Edward wasn't, but the pain was always there.

Are you going to answer my question about the helmet? :) Accident-prone Bella took quite a few spills on that motorcycle, and Jacob should have suggested a helmet if he was so concerned about her safety. I'm not saying he doesn't care about keeping her safe, of course he does, but that always bothered me.
Last edited by twilight1909 on Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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