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Re: Jacob Black

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:18 am

malaz wrote:The problem with Jacob is the way he handles himself and with things in general. Age is never an excuse. He consciously continues to make the same mistakes repeatedly - that never puts anyone in a good light. And he’s bratty and naïve some more.

I don’t think there’s any problem with Jacob wanting to fight for bella’s life. The way he went about these actions in eclipse were inexcusable. I think if he had a frequent maturity and understanding level in regards to bella’s choice and the way he wanted to fight for her that would have been better actually. It’s sort of like the distinction between shoving and pushing people to be the first on the bus and waiting patiently in line quietly (it’s quite irritating actually. Ugh. Never riding a crowded bus ever again). I am not sure why the excuse "in comparison to Edward..." often comes up. I am not sure if anyone puts reference or comparison between the two when realizing their opinions and judgments. At least, that's never the case with me. Jacob's actions in eclipse stand in stark contrast to Edward's and naturally they do seem that way - but without the comparison, the same thing can be said to his actions without putting edward into consideration.

The way Stephenie Meyer chose to present Jacob didn’t do enough justice to how clear his actions were to herself or how the character “naturally“ is supposed to be without the use of deliberate preferences. I felt as if she was trying too hard to present him in this certain, deliberate way. It just doesn’t work - for me at least. I think this is accentuated especially in eclipse (and in breaking dawn) and in particular in scenes with Edward and or Bella. And I think the major effect that eventuated his character to present himself in the way that he was presented in the books, especially is SM preference for Jacob. She claims she is “Switzerland” - I don’t doubt she doesn’t love Edward, but with the way the books read it leads me to think otherwise.


Of all of SMs preferences, her continual doting excuses and condonements for Bella's behaviors bother me the most. But I wouldn't say she prefers Jacob. After all, she gave Edward Bella. Jacob got stuck in a side note.

Malaz, sometimes i feel like you are a little biased against Jacob. Please don't be offended, we all do it. I'm not faulting you for it. But sometimes I feel like this makes you have a very negative attitude toward him in general, and you apply it to actions that really don't deserve it.

Honestly, what actions, besides the two kisses (one of which I can forgive him for ONLY out of his desperation, not saying it's right, just forgivable, and one that i completely abhor) do you find to be inexcusable?? Because i really think that's your bias talking, honestly.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby SenorGimp » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:23 am

Perhaps we could discuss, if we're not changing the subject, some of the interactions between the three (don't act like you don't know which three I'm talking about = ) which take place in Breaking Dawn??
I personally have about got my fill, at least for now, on discussing the motives and justifications of the 'rivals for Bella's affection' in New Moon and Eclipse, so I think it would only be prudent to move the discussion along to Breaking Dawn, as I really grew to appreciate and love both of the male leads a lot more (without points of contention like the 2nd and 3rd books have), and find that their acceptance of each other is one of the best, well one of my favorite things about the series, and since it wasn't a constant competition for Bella, since the wedding had pretty much decided that, I feel that that book helped me to understand the characters (Jacob and Edward, and even a bit of Bella too), and sympathize with them a lot more than I could throughout the second and third in the saga...
I personally found Jacob's decision to break apart from his pack to prevent sam and the rest from attacking to be quite courageous...
I found Edward's reaction to Bella's being pregnant (although I can understand his POV) to be appalling, bordering on reprehensible, which I forgave him for almost immediately when I saw through Jacob's eyes, and saw how much pain it was causing him to know that his 'demon seed' (as he saw it) was causing Bella extreme pain, threatening her health and presenting the looming possibility of causing Bella's untimely demise...
And I found Bella's return to persistence and strength of character to be long-overdue, a welcome surprise...
What about you guys (gals, whatever)?

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Re: Jacob Black

Postby buffygrl3 » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:46 am

I absolutely loved the fact that by the end of BD Edward and Jacob we're so close. I also think that Jacob breaking away from the pack was extremely brave, and noble. The fact that he cared enough, about Bella and what was right, to tear away from his pack was (I think) a very good indication of his morals and his willpower. And I was very glad that he found his loophole when he did, as soon as Sam did the Alpha thing I was pretty much SCREAMING for him to remember who the true Alpha power was. In BD Jacob acted much more mature than I think he did in ANY of the other books. Especially when he was dealing with Edward and Leah. The simple fact that he TRIED to understand where they were coming from was clear evidence that he had grown (aside from the obvious physical growth). Although, at some parts of the book he was somewhat immature, rude, and stubborn (mostly when it came to Bella + Edward) but, I don't really think I can blame him when considering the tug-o-war he was playing with Bella's heart and the (almost demented) proposition Edward gave him to present to Bella. (the puppies comment)
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby spicey16 » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:08 pm

jacob leaving the pack to be his own alpha i think was the starting point in him showing maturity. Esp. him allowing seth and leah to join him, and his compassion for leah's problems... it was really great for him i think to realize that she had been through the same thing.. so he had someone to relate to. Jacob was more mature than edward i think because he had to good sense to know that NO! HE CANT JUST HAVE BABIES WITH BELLS! lol besides the fact that she wouldnt go for it Jacob had the good sense to see how gross it was lol. Jacob did a lot of growing up in my opinion and i do-not-at-all-under- any -circumstances think that him kissing bella is as awful as some ppl make it out to be. yes e&b were enguaged but doesnt it make her more at fault?? any way dont get me started on bella...... jacob really impressed me with his level headedness and strenghth during BD
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby navarre » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:39 pm

When Jacob embraced his Alpha status, he found his true self. That was when he entered a new realm of maturity. I especially like how he talked with Jared in the forest about his returning to Sam's pack and told Jared that he did not think that he could "turn on & off this Alpha thing" it felt pretty permanent to Jacob. Leah & Seth really found their place with their new leader and Jacob showed that he could lead a pack and make the decisions necessary for that leadership.

He is a really sharp and smart guy, very intuitive, very perceptive. And for a sixteen almost seventeen year old, that's pretty cool. 8-)

It was good to see his and Edward's relationship finally evened out at the end and they became friends. Believe it or not, an old adversary can become a true friend. Rare, but it can happen.

I love how SM has developed such characters, that we can discuss time and time again the many layers that make them so special and interesting. I think that is a true testament to how well she not only created these characters, but how she wrote these stories.. imo. :)
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby SenorGimp » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:16 pm

All due praise and kudos to the wonderful twilight universe!!!
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby Wingtear » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:19 pm

I know this isn't the movie thread, and I refuse to write a deep and thoughtful post about Jacob (so many of you are better at it then me) but I just gotta say this, and we talked about it before you got all serious on me ;)
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby Amethyst1 » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:33 pm

holdingoutforjacob - I don’t think she gave Edward bella because she cares less about Jacob - that was always the story. Edward and not Bella -and Jacob is just part of that story.
Honestly, she excuses all of her of her characters actions. But I was just saying the way the books read, Jacob seems to be her favourite.

Hm, not necessarily. Jacob is just Jacob. I have a problem with him just like I have a problem with bella. I wouldn’t say that I am bised really. Are you saying Edward influences said bias? I mean, I don’t hate Jacob in general at all. Honestly, if we were to discuss something else, I would have a positive input (like in late breaking dawn, or new moon). I was discussing with Navarre something in the previous pages. Everyone seems to be discussing the actions that are…I don’t know what to call them, but yeah. So my input would have to be my opinion which is mostly negative…I mean, I still dislike him but there are aspect zof him that I can have a positive input on.

Do you want me to only reference eclipse? There’s some more in the other books.
-Deliberately showing Edward what bella looked like in new moon through his thoughts to only find solace in it.
-During the Graduation party
And then his attitude in general…

Inexcusable…hm, Or maybe unnecessary is a better word? Either way. Whatever. That’s how I seem them at least. Both words can apply, for me at least.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:50 pm

Unnecessary seems to fit better, but they are certainly not synonyms. It's important, if you want people to understand you, to be precise, especially on the internet.

I find it hard to believe that a logical, rational person like yourself would not be able to forgive a little anger and bitterness (the showing Edward bit in Eclipse). I'm not sure what he did at the graduation party. Refresh my memory?
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby Amethyst1 » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:00 pm

i think both can apply. And i applied them to the way he went about his actions, not Jacob in general. I think there's a difference.

Well, i am a pretty forgiving person - faster than bella in fact...However, this has nothing to do with me. I don't forgive bella for her stupid actions neither nor do i excuse some of edward's actions, they are all understandable actions however that doesn't mean they are right or they need to be approved. In Jacob's case, he was doing it deliberately and on purpose to gain solace. That's not right, nor it's forgivable and it's not understandable either because the only purpose of the action is to torture and again laughter and fun. Some of his other actions are perfectly understandable, like the first kiss or when he lashed at bella when she told him she was intending on becoming a vampire...

The Graduation party....hm, i don't have my book with me but i recall he was being unnecessary and rather a bit dominating. I don't know what the perfect word is. Anyways, he blocked alice's and bella's exist with his hand and he growled at them or something, i dunno, and he said something....and then Jasper came and glared at him...I'll have to check and get back to you. in a moment.

You seem to think that i have this deliberate agenda to have a negative view on everything he does and says. Jacob simply isn't my type and him and I literally repel, we don't mesh well...that ought to cause a problem, don't you think? apparently, opposites do not attracted. just because an electron and a proton do....doesn't mean anything ;)
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