Bella Swan Cullen #2

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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Postby Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 » Tue May 19, 2009 8:37 pm

DesiringJB wrote:Hey you guys, I was wondering if you could help me out...

In my opinion, I think Bella is a very needy, obsessive, and selfish character.. But I feel like those qualities do not really become clear until New Moon.. Do any of you guys have concrete Twilight examples that display these traits?? I mean I know her entire obsession with Edward throughout the book shows these.. But I'm looking to narrow it down to specific moments.. Got any??

I'd much appreciate your feedback!

I don't completely agree, DesiringJB, but on some points I can agree with you. Bella at times can be a little too needy and clingy, and a little selfish, but not constantly. I think her clingy side showed a little during Twilight too, though. She couldn't bare to be away from Edward for a short-term amount of time, and became a little obsessive. But that was ok. She fell in love for the first time. HARD. It happens when you love someone that much, you need them that much. Which resulted to her reaction when he left in New Moon. But she's not always selfish. She is a little self-less, letting herself die for Renesmee's life, or Edward's life, and giving up being a certain species for the one she loves. But that's also selfish. She can be those qualities, but never constantly, or to the full extent.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Tue May 19, 2009 9:20 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:
holdingoutforjacob wrote:First of all, no one said or even implied you didn't have a right to your opinion JG. I think we all need to lay off the dramatics and realize that just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they don't understand it's a matter of opinion. If it's necessary, I'll put a disclaimer in my signature, or we can all just err on the side of benefit of the doubt.


Jazz Girl wrote:[color=#4040FF]Alright, you first then. I specifically put that opening sentence in the paragraph because you have previously accused me of assigning my beliefs as facts. I have never represented by opinions or beliefs as facts. I merely respond when someone questions or responds to one of my posts, asks, for instance, why or how I can believe or interpret a certain way when clearly it is something else.


I misunderstood. I thought you were implying that someone had said you weren't entitled to your opinion. There was no need for the sarcasm. A simple misunderstanding.

Jazz Girl wrote:Make up your mind. Either you want people to clarify the specifics of the information they are going to post or you don't. You can't ask for clarification on something and then hiss and moan because you get it.


I have no idea what you're talking about. I have never done that.... I am utterly bewildered.

Jazz Girl wrote:As for your assertion that Bella's relationship with Edward while she is human is unhealthy, again, we all will read the story differently depending on our points of view. I will just say this. By the academic (ie social psychology/sociology) definition, at no time during the entirety of the relationship does it approach being classified as unhealthy. Granted, it couldn't be completely classified as healthy either. It is what is considered transitory, moving between or including aspects of both. But, it is mostly on the side of healthy.


And there we go. That is exactly what I am talking about. Give the psychology degree a rest would you??

I think that Bella's complete zombie-like state when Edward leaves in New Moon would indicate that she was too emotionally invested in that relationship, which would have begun in Twilight. As I said, it was trending toward unhealthy because she was putting so much of herself into Edward that when he left, there was nothing left of her.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Postby amethyst » Tue May 19, 2009 10:09 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:And there we go. That is exactly what I am talking about. Give the psychology degree a rest would you??
What is wrong with manifesting your knowledge (psychology degree or the equivalent) in a discussion you are involved in to add more foundation to your opinion? I am sorry, I don’t mean to be privy Jazz Girl or HOFJ--my apologizes. I am just completely baffled.

I don’t think it is was because she invested too much of herself into the relationship to a degree that it should be considered unhealthy… I can understand to an extent exactly why she behaved and reacted the way she had. Bella, she had chosen and was entirely secure that her future family, her soul mate, and the fate she had chosen were all going to be a part of her future. Now imagine all of that, in an instant, that certainty being completely shattered and literally those about-to-happen things were thrown out the window and having to become just a fantasy that you can never ever have become true. I am actually surprised that she was capable of functioning for the sake of not having to worry Charlie or Rene. Much like Jazz Girl, I applaud her for her strength.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Tue May 19, 2009 11:06 pm

^^ and that, in and of itself, worries me.

The fact that she put so much of herself into that relationship SO FAST is unhealthy. She is seventeen!! This is her first EVER relationship! She's known the guy for a few months!

That investing your entire self into such a new and unsteady relationship, and then barely being able to function for weeks rather than getting your Vulgar Language is Ugly together and trying to rebuild your life is being touted as strength is exactly what leads girls to relationships that end up failing. Because these principles DON'T WORK in real life. Okay, maybe in like, one in a million cases. but otherwise, none.

As for the psychology degree, it's a sticking point issue between myself and JG, one that needn't be explained to you, amethyst, with all due respect.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Postby Jazz Girl » Wed May 20, 2009 1:45 am

HofJ~ The reason I put those comments in my post is that you seem to go back and forth on a number of things when it suits your purposes. But, when others do it, you hiss and moan and raise high heaven about it because they are calling you out on your behavior. You hissed and moaned because you thought a previous post of mine presented my opinion as fact. So, I prefaced my next post by saying that the post was entirely my opinion, just to clarify lest I offend someone. And, your response is to call it dramatics and act all wounded. Hence the comment about wanting people to clarify things and then complaining when they do. And, yes, you regularly tell people that they are not entitled to their opinion. You've been called out on it many times by many different people, but you pretty much choose to ignore it. That's your choice.

As for my psychology degree, I'm sorry if I am able to bring to bear understanding and background that you don't have. I worked hard to gain it, and it does color my point of view and give me a certain background to work from when looking at things like the emotional healthiness of relationships. It is what I do. And, I notice on the Jacob thread that you aren't opposed to citing your own psychological sources when it suits your own purpose. The point to all of this; I am not automatically being condescending or putting myself out there as an authority just because, as a 31 year old adult, I have quite naturally experienced a few more things than you, or earned some additional understanding. You have some amazing insights into these characters, and some very interesting opinions. I really enjoy reading most of your posts. But, you really have to get past this idea that everyone disagrees with you because of your age, and that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong and just doesn't understand the text the way you do. We are all here to share our opinions on these stories that we love so much.

And, remember, if you put something out on the board rather than in a pm, it's out there for everyone to comment on regardless of the subject. Amethyst was mearly trying to provide comment on what you posted for everyone to read. If you don't want Amethyst's input, don't put it on the thread.

We now return to our regularly scheduled debate about the character of Bella Swan Cullen~

holdingoutforjacob wrote:^^ and that, in and of itself, worries me.

The fact that she put so much of herself into that relationship SO FAST is unhealthy. She is seventeen!! This is her first EVER relationship! She's known the guy for a few months!

That investing your entire self into such a new and unsteady relationship, and then barely being able to function for weeks rather than getting your Vulgar language is ugly together and trying to rebuild your life is being touted as strength is exactly what leads girls to relationships that end up failing. Because these principles DON'T WORK in real life. Okay, maybe in like, one in a million cases. but otherwise, none.


I don't necessarily agree here, HofJ. Dismissing the health of the relationship just because it develops quickly is unfair, in my opinion. First and foremost, I personally believe that it is possible, even in our cynical society and screwed up reality, that it is possible to meet the person you are meant to be with and just know. Not love at first sight. But, it is possible to meet someone and just have an instant connection. You are immediatly able to bypass all the bullcrap and posturing and games that typically accompany the first few weeks or months of a new relationship. You are able to move into that time of getting to know and learning to love. And, that's what I see happening in Bella & Edward's case.

Yes, Bella is 17. So? Because she's only 17, she can't know her own heart and mind? She can't understand what she wants? She hasn't earned the right to the respect of her choices in life because she hasn't reached some arbitrarily decided upon age of consent or understanding? I would think you, of all people, who have posted openly on these boards about how you hate people being condescended to or have their opinions dismissed because of their age, might be a little more understanding, at least where this factor is concerned.

Yes, it is her first relationship. Again, so? Not everyone is born to play the field. When you find the person you are meant to be with, it doesn't matter if it is your first, fifty-first or one hundred and first relationship. You grab that person and you hold on.

In the end, as has been stated on this and many other threads, the relationship between Bella & Edward is part of a fantasy story. There are too many mystical elements involved to be able to apply the principles of their relationship to our reality. Do I think there are some qualities or things that people can look to as examples of things to look for or to strive for? In my opinion, yes. But, that being said, so what if a young woman does try and the relationship fails. Relationships work and fail everyday. That's how we learn what we want and don't want, what's good for us and what's not. That's a part of the process. I myself did meet my husband at 17 and was ready to marry him at 18. We didn't marry until I was 21 because I wanted to complete university. We've been together 13 years and married almost 10. And, yes, I met him and I knew, almost instantly, that I wanted to be with him. So, I can identify in a lot of ways with Bella. When he was deployed, my life ended for a time. Even though I knew he was coming home, a part of me had to accept that he might not. And, a part of me curled up and died. I actually laugh with my husband about how spot on Bella's reaction is in New Moon. I used to do exactly the same thing she does. I walked around constantly with my arms wrapped around me trying to hold myself together. And, every day I got out of bed and went through the motions of being alive because I needed to do that for the people in my life. The effort that took...the sheer will to pretend to be alive....there aren't words to describe that. Bella loves Edward. Edward is Bella's life, just as she is Edward's. It is what it is, whether we choose to understand or not.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Postby The Dark Knight » Wed May 20, 2009 2:23 am

Jazz Girl and holdingoutforjacob,

Please take a few steps back and breath. You both have great points and I for one have truly enjoyed both of your views. It might be best to let stand what has past and move on within the thread as we explore these fascinating literary characters. We all have hot buttons, as December reminded us, we need to allow each other there space to express themselves in a reasonable manor. Please try to leave the personal stuff out. I’m sure someone will have to remind me of this down the road too…

OMG, is this coming from me...dogs and cat living together mass hysteria will ensue...

Now to our regularly schedule discussion:

The only thing about New Moon and for that matter Twilight’s building up of Edward and Bella’s relationship that bothers me is the fact that some impressionable young teens to adults might think this is the model of a relationship. It is a bit scary to think that one could easily see a young lady deciding her inner dialog as the voice from her recently defunct boyfriend and rashly doing something that could cause her harm. Life imitating art in a very bad way don’t you all think?
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Postby vampirenerd » Wed May 20, 2009 9:35 am

I agree that the relationships in the book need to be looked at as a work of fiction. It's not unheard of that you fall in love with the first person you date. I met my fiance at 17, he was only the second guy I had dated and I just knew that we had something. We "talked" for three days before he asked me out and we've been togtether ever since. Now we've been together for 4 years (i know it's not 13 lol, and congrats on JG...that's not something you see a lot these days) but compared to most of the people my age I know that's a long time. We're getting married in October. I've never had to be away from him or have him leave for an extended period of time for any reason but I can imagine that if for whatever reason, he was no longer in my life it would be extremely hard for me to live with. So, I can see how Bella could fall in love with someone that quickly (esp. a dazzling, super sexy vampire lol) and I also understand why she hurt so much when he left. It's not wrong to put that much of yourself into a person that you love and who loves you back (which Edward did) no matter how young you are. At the same time, their relationship and all the things surrounding it are fiction. Things can happen in books that don't happen in real life. So while I don't think it's wrong to strive for that kind of relationship, it is so based in fiction that it's not possible to actually have that exact kind of relationship.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Postby Fizzles » Wed May 20, 2009 10:23 am

Yes, Bella and Edward's relationship in the book is a work of fiction. I do hope that an impressionable generation do see that. But it doesn't mean that a love like that can't translate to real life. I'm not a complete soppy romantic but I do believe in hope and love. In my opinion you can meet someone and feel that immediate bond. I think its this way for Bella and Edward. I agree with JazzGirl that you can skip over all the nonsense and game playing that can sometimes happen with a new relationship, and start naturally with getting to know the real person.

I was on a holiday staying in Scotland(I live in Ireland) with my best friend when I met my husband. I was out shopping one day on my own when we "noticed" each other but didn't speak. Later on that night when my friend and I were out I saw him. We both instantly recognised each other from earlier in the day and walked to approach each other. And so it began. It was easy, natural, and the best feeling in the world. It wasn't a holiday romance, it was much more. I went home and we continued to stay in touch with letters, texts, and phonecalls every day. Over the next few months we spent every other weekend flying back and forth to see each other. After about six months we could not take the separation so he moved to Ireland to be with me.

Bella and Edward, who had to be careful with getting physical, did things differently. The way their relationship had to develop a different sort of intimacy. We were like that in the way that the distance made us really got to know each other through conversation. I have found this to be a very strong base for a wonderful relationship. Together for six years and married for three.

Its the relationship between Bella and Edward that had me hooked through all of the books. I felt fully invested in every emotion she shared. And it didn't hurt to have such a goegeous set of actors work on the film! ;)
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Postby vampirenerd » Wed May 20, 2009 10:47 am

I agree that it is possible to have that kind of love just not that kind of relationsip. Their relationship is made up of and surrounded by a world of fantasy. So yes, you can strive and hopefully have that kind of love but not that kind of relationship, IMO.
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Re: Bella Swan Cullen #2

Postby ringswraith » Wed May 20, 2009 11:53 am

vampirenerd wrote:I agree that it is possible to have that kind of love just not that kind of relationsip. Their relationship is made up of and surrounded by a world of fantasy. So yes, you can strive and hopefully have that kind of love but not that kind of relationship, IMO.


I'm not sure I follow you, vampirenerd. Would you mind elaborating your point? :)
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