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i am saying that ALL, yes ALL, seventeen year old boys have the occasional jerkish moment. and i'm also saying that Jacob was under a hell of a lot more stress than most boys who are 17.

I just don't understand what, exactly, he did that was so unthinkable. You keep referring to "what Jacob did" as if there's some huge incident or series of incidents that were almost criminal.

You want to talk about an incident that was almost criminal, we can. I really think you need to put him back into focus Malaz, back next to your dear Edward. There are a few things that Edward did that were unthinkable. Like vandalism, and breaking and entering.

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Malaz, he just wasn't that bad.

He did a few stupid things, yes. But haven't you ever known a seventeen year old boy? I'm going to guess you have. I'm also going to guess that you don't think that all of them are crude and unnecessarily mean. Jacob reacted like any normal seventeen year old faced with his set of circumstances would, far better in some ways.

I just don't see how he was mean. To Edward, maybe, but Edward had it coming.

that's wut i was hinting at. he was just actin like a teenager. Jacob's not a mature 20 something, he's still in kid mode. it's that whole retaliation kind of thing, similar to a boy "being mean" to a girl to show he likes her. not that exact thing though. then on top of that, it doesn't help that the love he has for Bella is being threatened by Edward, and as bad as he wants her, he can't prove to her how bad. i guess i'm kind of rambling buuuut you get what i'm saying?

navarre wrote:Whoa - love your banner!! Great six pack on Taylor - he is definitely ready to get his wolf on!!

I do not want anymore POV's. I would love for her to carry on these stories from a third person narrative as most books are written. That way we get everyone's thoughts, so forth. As I have said in previous posts, I never had a problem with the whole Jacob/Renesmee imprinting thing - I was cool with it. Since we already had a Quil/Claire thing, why not Jacob/Renesmee. And yes, I think they can have children. If you think about it that could really unite the pack to the vampires even more in alliances and yes, probably create a new race of beings.
Interesting. imo.

thanx and i understand the thing about the POV's because I was thinking that myself. But SM's writing is so powerful in first person that I think the spark and connection from reader to character would diminish if it was in third, jus a bystander through all the chaos.

I think we can all agree that both Jacob and Edward did their share of stupid things...

Edward, first of all, he was constantly underestimating Bella (her thoughts,feelings,love,etc) by saying "more than you could know" or similar things. Then he makes the hugest mistake in the world by taking off on her, mostly because of all the underestimating he was doing before.

And Jacob, he forced himself on Bella fairly often and regularly (kissing her, holding hands, etc.) and he pushed the boundries in their relationship at a time when Bella was pretty vulnerable.

In all reality the blame for his somewhat rash actions can be placed on both him, Edward and Bella.
Edward acted horribly arrogant and superior when Jacob was around. And Bella led Jacob on in Twilight by faking interest to get him to tell her the legends... but he carried on the interest through the rest of the series. He continued to try to push the relationship further, he blurred the lines that Bella had in place, and he kept trying to get the girl long after she'd made her choice.

In many of the situations where he kinda blew up, he was wrong, but it's not fair for us condemn him for his actions. They were after-all the actions of a TEEN WEREWOLF who was tragically in love with the vampire's girl. His reactions were by far better than many of the guys I've encountered and since none of us has ever been (nor could we be) in his shoes it is unfair for us to assume that we would react any differently.

Thank you buffygrl, that was very well put. I don't necessarily think that anyone would handle the situation much better, especially with someone as seemingly-perfect as Edward constantly ridiculing you and rubbing your nose in the fact that he's going to win, there's no doubt in his mind he's going to win (even when he doesn't want to win her, he still knows he's going to).
How would you react??
(meaning the proverbial you)

buffygrl3 wrote:I think we can all agree that both Jacob and Edward did their share of stupid things...

.....

In all reality the blame for his somewhat rash actions can be placed on both him, Edward and Bella.

Beautifully put. No huge blame on either party. They are all to blame in some way or another.

Would you understand what I mean if I say "They're only human?"

holdingoutforjacob wrote:i am saying that ALL, yes ALL, seventeen year old boys have the occasional jerkish moment. and i'm also saying that Jacob was under a hell of a lot more stress than most boys who are 17.

I just don't understand what, exactly, he did that was so unthinkable. You keep referring to "what Jacob did" as if there's some huge incident or series of incidents that were almost criminal.

You want to talk about an incident that was almost criminal, we can. I really think you need to put him back into focus Malaz, back next to your dear Edward. There are a few things that Edward did that were unthinkable. Like vandalism, and breaking and entering.

That I can’t agree with either because everybody has occasionally jerkish moments, not just 17 year olds. I don’t know why you’re generalizing and in what way does it matter that other people do it, be a jerk I mean? Maybe I should elaborate more on my part, see, I don’t think Jacob’s conducts were a basis to his underdeveloped maturity. Yes he’s young and inexperienced but the same could be said about Edward. The difference is, that Edward is introspective and overly analytical and pessimistic while Jacob is optimistically going with the flow without a rethought type of person and the type in personality makes for a huge difference in how a person would think and act.

Stress? I am sorry, really? I mean, honestly really? - I am not trying to be a jerk or anything. I promise, in fact. I just want you to clarify more.

No, of coarse not - not almost criminal. Just conducts that lack human ethics, in my opinion - I suppose criminals lack ethics but I am not referring to the same thing. If you want to discuss an action, I’d like to discuss Jacob perusing Bella. Just that, simply.

“put Jacob into focus, back next to your dear Edward” - what exactly do you mean? ugh, sorry…I am very rumpled at the moment.
__________
Discussing a character's actions and thoughts and having a negative view on them does not necessarily mean i blame Jacob for anything. In fact, i don't blame him for anything - i simply dislike him in eclipse.

(exasperated) Here we go again *ducks head for protection* jk

SenorGimp wrote:(exasperated) Here we go again *ducks head for protection* jk

LOL, you're so right!! They are funny. I guess I can see both sides but I'm deffinetly biased towards holdingoutforjacob's side.....I love omjb_loveydove's siggy!!

Jacob Black. Warning: May induce heavy panting.

the thing that gets me, is that you are both so incredibly intelligent and well-spoken, both of you make such excellent points, but you can't, for all of your wide spectrum of thoughts and insights, seem to see eye to eye on anything...
You two truly are champions for Jacob's and Edward's "sides", respectively...
That's cool, but i'm staying out of it from now on. I've discussed this subject more often than I've probably even had anything to add. Just keep writing the same stuff over, in different formats with different words...
It gets kind of hard to find new ways to say it after a while...
Can't we all just get along?
-looking left, face drops a little-
-looking right, smile replaced with nervous, shifty eyes-
Um, forget I said anything
jk guys, but seriously, Jacob's been a jerk about a lot of things, and is, depending on how you look at it, equally as flawed as Edward, in regards to the decisions they make, and Edward's far from perfect, not giving Bella the freedom to do what she wanted in a lot of situations, constantly making it into an "If you'd never met me, this wouldn't have happened" self-loathing party, whatever, they both have their fair share of bad character traits, but you two ('...jacob' and 'malaz') are so adamant and eloquent in your arguments, you should spend some time discussing things you agree on.
I bet you'd come out of it friends!!
I don't know, i'll just stay out of it, as I should have done to begin with (stupid inability to stop talking, or, well, to stop writing or erase what i just wrote prior to posting... ??)

[/quote] Yes he’s young and inexperienced but the same could be said about Edward. [/quote]

I disagree. Edward may be 17 in body but he's existed for almost a hundred years longer than Jacob has. That's a simple fact.

But neither of you (and none of us) are accomplishing anything by arguing constantly. Neither of you are going to change your mind on the matter and all that your arguing is doing is causing distress in what are otherwise very reasonable, peaceful threads. Not that I could blame either of you, you're both very good at battling for your chosen guy and you both have very good points but can we please PLEASE move on to a different topic? Both guys have problems and both are fantastic in very different ways so lets just agree to disagree and move on to a more peaceful discussion.