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Re: Jacob Black

Postby Dovrebanen » Fri May 22, 2009 2:27 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote::
What I have been fighting are the following assertions.

A) that what happened at the wedding was entirely Jacob's fault
B) that Jacob came to the wedding with the intent of continuing to fight for Bella
C) that Jacob didn't put out a concerted effort to make it a special evening for Bella
D) that Jacob simply flew off the handle with no lead up
E) that what happened at the wedding makes Jacob a bad friend
F) that Jacob didn't think he could handle it and didn't care if he caused a scene or got angry
G) this is the big one. That what happened at the wedding should be considered an example of who Jacob truly is, at heart. I have seen a lot of the people who argue this say that ONLY the argument should be considered. But, if you add in the rest of the conversation, you see someone trying very, very, very hard, but you also see someone who is inexperienced in handling these situations, someone who's incredibly stressed out, and someone who acts overemotionally to some very disturbing news.

You also see Bella have a little temper tantrum of her own before his, but of course no one mentions that. :P

HOFJ, believe it or not, I agree with almost every single word in this. Very well said!
The way I see it, Jacob came to the wedding to be Bella's friend. To an extent he had accepted that Bella would marry Edward. Or..What I will call it, he believed he had accepted it and could handle it. He still loved her, and I still think a small part of him was hoping that she would be his one day. But he did not come to the wedding with that in mind at all I think. He stayed away for such a long time. Why would he come back to cause trouble? If he believed he was still not able to handle seeing Bella with Edward, he would not have come back. The last thing in the world he wanted was to put Bella in any kind of danger. Jacob was just like Edward in that way.

It was the information he got a the wedding that made it all wrong for him. The thought of her having a normal honeymoon with her vampire husband, was too much to handle. Now as I've said before: safety first, but I also think that it triggered an amount of jealousy on his part. Not that he came to the wedding with the intention to fight for her, but at the wedding he realized that he was loosing Bella one way or another. What happened was wrong and dangerous. And it should not have happened. He should not have shaken Bella or whatever he did, or threaten Edward. That's really undebateable. But I agree with, hofj. This does not make Jacob ultimately a bad friend. He was young, in love and scared for her life and bit jealous/angry. He had been a good friend to Bella for a long time. What he did at the wedding was a huge mistake. But the way I see it, he didn't mean for it to happen. This does not make his behavior in any way right, but still I want to give Jacob the benefit of the doubt and say that he never intended to cause any harm at the wedding. Now this goes on to prove that Jacob wasn't in control of his emotions the way he should have been. But he didn't know that at the time, I think. Like hofj said, he was trying so hard to be a good friend. He tried to put a smile on her face when she looked like she was about to cry. He asked her if she was happy, and said that was the main thing. For a long time he put his own feelings aside.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby amethyst » Fri May 22, 2009 9:22 am

“Jacob came to the wedding to [only] be Bella’s friend…” That, frankly does not make much sense to me. In Eclipse, him and Bella kissed, canoodled, fondled and professed their love to one another as only friends do! How idiotic can one be to realize that once things such as these happen it is nearly impossible to be “JUST” friends or even “PRETEND” to be just friends with someone whom you are in love with. This, without a doubt applies for Bella as well, I find it atrocious that she wanted Jacob as “her best man” at her and Edward’s wedding when she was still in love with him. And I found it extremely selfish that Jacob stepped foot at the wedding --coming to the wedding to be Bella’s friend one more time argument just does not hold water for me, especially when you consider the subsequent events.

Yes Jacob is young, yes he has temper and emotional issues… but that is the person who I am supposed to judge, not the person whom he becomes when he is a mature person ten years from now. There is no justification or excuses for his behaviour at the wedding.

Case in point… Jacob shouldn’t have attended, regardless of whether he could have handled it or not and Bella shouldn’t have wanted him there. Of coarse it is natural for them to still want to see each other, but not until they both spent time away from each other to take a few breaths and move on with their lives.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby diane771 » Fri May 22, 2009 3:47 pm

[quoteIt was the information he got a the wedding that made it all wrong for him. The thought of her having a normal honeymoon with her vampire husband, was too much to handle. Now as I've said before: safety first, but I also think that it triggered an amount of jealousy on his part. Not that he came to the wedding with the intention to fight for her, but at the wedding he realized that he was loosing Bella one way or another. What happened was wrong and dangerous. And it should not have happened. He should not have shaken Bella or whatever he did, or threaten Edward. That's really undebateable. But I agree with, hofj. This does not make Jacob ultimately a bad friend. He was young, in love and scared for her life and bit jealous/angry. He had been a good friend to Bella for a long time. What he did at the wedding was a huge mistake. But the way I see it, he didn't mean for it to happen. This does not make his behavior in any way right, but still I want to give Jacob the benefit of the doubt and say that he never intended to cause any harm at the wedding. Now this goes on to prove that Jacob wasn't in control of his emotions the way he should have been. But he didn't know that at the time, I think. Like hofj said, he was trying so hard to be a good friend. He tried to put a smile on her face ][/quote]

We usually see things alike, but how do you deep down when you say that he wasn't over Bella, and he didn't accept Edward? Was he so sheltered that he didn't know about honeymoons? I think it was just a reason to go off, because it was something what married people do on their honeymoon. As for Edward hurting Bella, for this again Jacob got it wrong, and mostly because he refused to get to know Edward more to see what Edward wanted for Bella. So again I see it as making accuses for Jacobs behavior. Jacob had plenty of tme to realize what marriage was all about, he had plenty of time to get to know that Edward would rather die than hurt Bella, yet he chose not to do that, and exploded at her wedding. I can't let him off that easy. Too many things could have happened because of Jacob's temper, and that is the reason why he need to stay away. And as for as accepting Bella and Edward, no I really don't think when he walked in there he really had accepted it, and when he saw it, teality hit him it the face.
But yes, I will agree that his intentions on the surface were to come as a friend, and he truly believed that he could. But when you are in love with someone, you just can't turn it off like a faucet. Jacob needed time to get over Bella and what she wanted in her life. I do feel for Jacob, and as I have been saying that it just wasn't the place to see if you could turn that faucet off and become just friends. It was self inflicting pain for him to come, I bet he thought long and hard about it and cried about it, but it was too soon to have those emotions under control. I just didn't think at Bella's wedding was the place to see if he could go back in being just her friend. That is such a hard thing to do when you love someone, and especially to see them at their wedding, Jacob for his own sake and sanity should not have come. It torn him up and then Bella felt bad also. It was hard and I am not a Jacob hater as people may think ,its just the time and place.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 » Fri May 22, 2009 3:53 pm

Diane, you bring up a good point. And yes, to the previous post you made, all that matters is the fact of the truth. :D I'm glad we can agree on some things. :lol: I like that statement about how on the surface he came as a friend, but couldn't turn the "faucet of water" off and be "just friends." I'm sure it was complicated but as time passed, especially during Bella's pregnancy, to me they became more like brother and sister. He still loved her of course, up until Renesmee's birth where he only loved her like a friend or sister. But their relationship became less complicated, and more friendly, during Bella's pregnancy. Yes, he still loved her, but he always will. And she'll always love him. But never again, romantically. It's like couples that have broken up, but they're still such close friends and they still love and care about each other, just not in an Edward and Bella way. Get what I'm saying?
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby diane771 » Fri May 22, 2009 4:03 pm

Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 wrote:Diane, you bring up a good point. And yes, to the previous post you made, all that matters is the fact of the truth. :D I'm glad we can agree on some things. :lol: I like that statement about how on the surface he came as a friend, but couldn't turn the "faucet of water" off and be "just friends." I'm sure it was complicated but as time passed, especially during Bella's pregnancy, to me they became more like brother and sister. He still loved her of course, up until Renesmee's birth where he only loved her like a friend or sister. But their relationship became less complicated, and more friendly, during Bella's pregnancy. Yes, he still loved her, but he always will. And she'll always love him. But never again, romantically. It's like couples that have broken up, but they're still such close friends and they still love and care about each other, just not in an Edward and Bella way. Get what I'm saying?


I totally get what you are saying and I feel the same way. When you love someone and the Twilight books are on such a short time span, you just can't love someone and turn it off. Such as when Edward left Bella in NM it takes time to heal. And Jacob is no different from anyone else. it must have torn him apart and so again he should not have inflicted himself to that pain. And even though Edwards intention were good to invite him. Maybe he should have known better, but then he was only trying to please Bella. But its not really fair to please someone at anothers expense, but Jacob came and he thought he could deal with it, I know that I would not be able to do that. And yes you can become close friends I have, but if takes a little time to get overthat part of the relationship and build it into a stronger friendship. I always lived by a saying that Lovers come and go but true friends stay. So Jacob need the healing time to revert back to the friend stage. I am so happy that we agree!!! :D
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby vampirenerd » Fri May 22, 2009 5:30 pm

Just one comment on the point of Jacob "knowing" what happens on honeymoons. I am pretty sure that he knew what normal couples do on their honeymoons but seeing as how Edward and Bella aren't a "normal" couple I believe that Jacob had really not thought that Edward would even think about doing that until after Bella had been turned. To him it made complete sense to wait, and it had never crossed his mind that they might not. I think it was the shock of hearing that information that made him react the way he did. In his mind he couldn't figure out how they would be able to do that in a safe way with Edward being a vampire and Bella being human. He was scared for her and as MEC>3 said, that combined with him being 16 and caring for her leads to a "shaking werewolf". Once again I'm not ok with how he reacted. Just pointing out what I think about the situation.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby diane771 » Fri May 22, 2009 5:50 pm

vampirenerd wrote:Just one comment on the point of Jacob "knowing" what happens on honeymoons. I am pretty sure that he knew what normal couples do on their honeymoons but seeing as how Edward and Bella aren't a "normal" couple I believe that Jacob had really not thought that Edward would even think about doing that until after Bella had been turned. To him it made complete sense to wait, and it had never crossed his mind that they might not. I think it was the shock of hearing that information that made him react the way he did. In his mind he couldn't figure out how they would be able to do that in a safe way with Edward being a vampire and Bella being human. He was scared for her and as MEC>3 said, that combined with him being 16 and caring for her leads to a "shaking werewolf". Once again I'm not ok with how he reacted. Just pointing out what I think about the situation.


I have been posting many times that if Jacob had known Edward better that this whole thing and shaking Bella would not have happened so yes I do fault him for that, because he assumed that he knew everything and he knew nothing. He did not know how Edward had poshed Bella away from going to that level, He didn't know how much pressure Bella was putting on Edward and he didn't know that Edward would try and just try and if it didn't workthen they would have to wait. So yes I do fault Jacob in getting into someone's business without knowing the facts. Bella wanted to and the only way it would happen was if Edward knew and would have complete control. isn't that in the book? I don't think that I am just assuming any of this because this is all writen down. This is why I am so upset that Jacob didn't take the time to get to know that Edward would never hurt Bella and that if she was his best friend then he should have acted like one. But I still think that he could not turn his feelings off like a faucet and so again another reason why he should not have come. Now if Jacob had known that Bella begged Edward to do that and the Edward only agreed to try would that made any difference? Was it any of his business? I think that its no to both. so if you go into a rage without knowing all the facts that is out of control in my books, it might not be in others and that is cool but for me it is . You need all the facts before you jump to conclusions like Jacob did. And this is my opinion on this and I respect that you think its ok that he has a right to go off with out knowing everything but I might be with you if it wasn't at the wedding.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby Renesmee101 » Sat May 23, 2009 10:40 pm

Sorry to pop in like this, but I've been following this forum for a while and its been an absolutely facinating read, and I've been itching to jump in. :D

diane771 wrote:
vampirenerd wrote:Just one comment on the point of Jacob "knowing" what happens on honeymoons. I am pretty sure that he knew what normal couples do on their honeymoons but seeing as how Edward and Bella aren't a "normal" couple I believe that Jacob had really not thought that Edward would even think about doing that until after Bella had been turned. To him it made complete sense to wait, and it had never crossed his mind that they might not. I think it was the shock of hearing that information that made him react the way he did. In his mind he couldn't figure out how they would be able to do that in a safe way with Edward being a vampire and Bella being human. He was scared for her and as MEC>3 said, that combined with him being 16 and caring for her leads to a "shaking werewolf". Once again I'm not ok with how he reacted. Just pointing out what I think about the situation.


I have been posting many times that if Jacob had known Edward better that this whole thing and shaking Bella would not have happened so yes I do fault him for that, because he assumed that he knew everything and he knew nothing. He did not know how Edward had poshed Bella away from going to that level, He didn't know how much pressure Bella was putting on Edward and he didn't know that Edward would try and just try and if it didn't workthen they would have to wait. So yes I do fault Jacob in getting into someone's business without knowing the facts. Bella wanted to and the only way it would happen was if Edward knew and would have complete control. isn't that in the book? I don't think that I am just assuming any of this because this is all writen down. This is why I am so upset that Jacob didn't take the time to get to know that Edward would never hurt Bella and that if she was his best friend then he should have acted like one. But I still think that he could not turn his feelings off like a faucet and so again another reason why he should not have come. Now if Jacob had known that Bella begged Edward to do that and the Edward only agreed to try would that made any difference? Was it any of his business? I think that its no to both. so if you go into a rage without knowing all the facts that is out of control in my books, it might not be in others and that is cool but for me it is . You need all the facts before you jump to conclusions like Jacob did. And this is my opinion on this and I respect that you think its ok that he has a right to go off with out knowing everything but I might be with you if it wasn't at the wedding.

Here's the one kink I have with you're evaluation: that Jacob should have gotten to know Edward better.
The reason I have a problem understanding where you come from on that is that even though I agree that everyone would have been better off getting to know each other better, saying that Jake should have known Edward that well when they're naturally sworn enemies and in love with the same girl is kinda rediculous (sp?). Even with Edward's mindreading gift, he never truly tried to get to know Jacob as far as I've been able to see. If I'm wrong, please show me where I've missed it (p.s. I don't really count the tent scene because niether of them really got to know each other's personalities that night. They mainly just found out each others tactics for winning Bella) so that I can re-evaluate my thoughts. But to insist that Jacob should have known the ins and outs of a relationship that he dissaproved of and had been away from for months is crazy to me. So if you could explain that one a bit more, it'd help alot.

Like I said at the begining of this post, I've been lurking on this and a couple other boards for a while and have been dying to jump in for a while. So, there's my two cents. :)
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby vampirenerd » Sat May 23, 2009 11:48 pm

DIane, we both agree on the fact that Jacob can not turn his emotions on and off. He is a very emotional person and has trouble controlling them. That is a proven point time and time again. Your question about whether or not it would have made a difference if Jacob knew that Bella was pushing the point. I agree no, it wouldn't have. He still would have been worried about her safety. He still would've been scared that she would get hurt. And you're right, I don't fault him for being upset and being afraid that Bella would get hurt on her honeymoon. Once again though (and I've said this plenty of times) I do have a problem with the way Jacob reacted. He should have never put his hands on Bella. But once again he's a 16 year old werewolf with temper control issues. I'm not making excuses for the way he reacted just saying that I can see why he would get upset (NOT why he would put his hands on her though). Renesmee 101 personally I agree with you. It doesn't make sense that a werewolf and a vampire would voluntarily try to get to know each other when they are natural enemies. To me, the fact that they have even got to the point of being able to speek somewhat civily and be in the same room together (for Bella's sake) is a MAJOR achievement.

But once again Diane I will just have to say that we will have to agree to disagree. We've been going back and forth, and though I've said we'll have to agree to disagree before, it keeps getting brought up. No offense but obviously neither one of us is going to change the others mind. We both have very strong opinions on this and that doesn't mean that either one of us is wrong, we just don't see it the same way. So, once again not to be rude, but we're pretty much beating a dead horse here.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby diane771 » Sun May 24, 2009 1:58 am

Well , vampirenerd its like a coin has two sides and I am all for talking, debating anyone who listens to my comments and then responds like you have and I do appreciate you doing that. Don't you think after all Edward had done to keep Bella safe up to that point and how Bella told Jacob how good of a person Edward was, even in Eclispe after the fight, Jacob had wanted Edward to be upset with Bella and him. But when Bella told Jacob he wasn't, Jacob still thought Edward was playing a game with Bella and him. Edward held Bella ing his arms that night while she just cried and cried, wanting to take the pain away and if it meant being with Jacob, Edward would wanted that. BUT Jacob tells Bella that he will always be in the wings waiting and then even when her heart stops beating maybe. So this is what I base my feelings on that Jacob should not have come to the wedding because it wasn't just as a friend Eclispe chapter 26 it was a very emotional chapter for both Jacob and Bella and he wasn't over her and he never accept Edward and never gave him anything but bad mouthing because Jacob was fighting for Bella.

Here's the one kink I have with you're evaluation: that Jacob should have gotten to know Edward better.
The reason I have a problem understanding where you come from on that is that even though I agree that everyone would have been better off getting to know each other better, saying that Jake should have known Edward that well when they're naturally sworn enemies and in love with the same girl is kinda rediculous (sp?). Even with Edward's mindreading gift, he never truly tried to get to know Jacob as far as I've been able to see. If I'm wrong, please show me where I've missed it (p.s. I don't really count the tent scene because niether of them really got to know each other's personalities that night. They mainly just found out each others tactics for winning Bella) so that I can re-evaluate my thoughts. But to insist that Jacob should have known the ins and outs of a relationship that he dissaproved of and had been away from for months is crazy to me. So if you could explain that one a bit more, it'd help alot.

I was talking as everybody was saying Jacob came there as just a friend. So yes as her "best" friend and all the times Bella told him about Edward, he didn't believe it. So if you don't believe something and you feel that your friend is in danger, I know I would try and find out as much as I can, and Edward never ever put up road blocks towards Jacob for him to get to know him better. He was always going to do that for Bella's sake except it never happened. So no I don't think that I am asking something rdidulous at all. If Jacob had and Edward shut down fine. If Jacob refused over and orver and over so many times when Bella tried to tell him how Edward was, and all he said was Edward was playing a game. I would be courious if someone I cared for had all good things to say about someone I didn't like but I didn't even give a chance, I would try and get to know him and not throw out the snide and bad remarks and ruin my relationship with my best friend. But that is me and it wasn't Jacob[color=#FF0000]. But after reading the chapter there is no way now that anyone can say it with a straight face that Jacob came as just Bella's friend and I am right! And I would like for you to read it and al least give me that much and not keep saying I am wrong but if you can't see it in the book then that's ok but I do feel that it renforces my feelings of him going to the Wedding. [/color]
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