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Re: Jacob Black

Postby RebeccaCullen » Sun May 24, 2009 5:06 am

diane771 wrote:Well , vampirenerd its like a coin has two sides and I am all for talking, debating anyone who listens to my comments and then responds like you have and I do appreciate you doing that. Don't you think after all Edward had done to keep Bella safe up to that point and how Bella told Jacob how good of a person Edward was, even in Eclispe after the fight, Jacob had wanted Edward to be upset with Bella and him. But when Bella told Jacob he wasn't, Jacob still thought Edward was playing a game with Bella and him. Edward held Bella ing his arms that night while she just cried and cried, wanting to take the pain away and if it meant being with Jacob, Edward would wanted that. BUT Jacob tells Bella that he will always be in the wings waiting and then even when her heart stops beating maybe. So this is what I base my feelings on that Jacob should not have come to the wedding because it wasn't just as a friend Eclispe chapter 26 it was a very emotional chapter for both Jacob and Bella and he wasn't over her and he never accept Edward and never gave him anything but bad mouthing because Jacob was fighting for Bella.


What I put in red is one of the key reasons I always thought that Edward was better for Bella. Yes, Jake was a great friend to Bella when the Cullen's left, but he never really accepted the fact that Bella's heart belonged to Edward. This was the thing I found that really defined how different the two guys were. Edward was all for her and what made her happy, even if it wasn't with him. With Jake it seemed to be what he wanted.

I do get why Jake wanted to be there on her wedding day, and that he had accepted that she would never be his, he didn't seem to accept or consider that she could or would want a "normal" honeymoon. I get his concern, but Jake fails to see that what Bella and Edward do behind closed doors is really none of his business.

I always found Jake to be a bit of a hypocrite because he always said he would never hurt her, and yet assumed the worst of Edward who had said the same thing. Yes, Edward leaving did hurt her emotionally, but Jake grabbing a hold of her and shaking her like he did made him lucky that they didn't press charges against him. He had been told to let go, but didn't until the members of the pack and Edward made their way over.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby Renesmee101 » Sun May 24, 2009 12:15 pm

diane771 wrote:
Here's the one kink I have with you're evaluation: that Jacob should have gotten to know Edward better.
The reason I have a problem understanding where you come from on that is that even though I agree that everyone would have been better off getting to know each other better, saying that Jake should have known Edward that well when they're naturally sworn enemies and in love with the same girl is kinda rediculous (sp?). Even with Edward's mindreading gift, he never truly tried to get to know Jacob as far as I've been able to see. If I'm wrong, please show me where I've missed it (p.s. I don't really count the tent scene because niether of them really got to know each other's personalities that night. They mainly just found out each others tactics for winning Bella) so that I can re-evaluate my thoughts. But to insist that Jacob should have known the ins and outs of a relationship that he dissaproved of and had been away from for months is crazy to me. So if you could explain that one a bit more, it'd help alot.

I was talking as everybody was saying Jacob came there as just a friend. So yes as her "best" friend and all the times Bella told him about Edward, he didn't believe it. So if you don't believe something and you feel that your friend is in danger, I know I would try and find out as much as I can, and Edward never ever put up road blocks towards Jacob for him to get to know him better. He was always going to do that for Bella's sake except it never happened. So no I don't think that I am asking something rdidulous at all. If Jacob had and Edward shut down fine. If Jacob refused over and orver and over so many times when Bella tried to tell him how Edward was, and all he said was Edward was playing a game. I would be courious if someone I cared for had all good things to say about someone I didn't like but I didn't even give a chance, I would try and get to know him and not throw out the snide and bad remarks and ruin my relationship with my best friend. But that is me and it wasn't Jacob. But after reading the chapter there is no way now that anyone can say it with a straight face that Jacob came as just Bella's friend and I am right! And I would like for you to read it and al least give me that much and not keep saying I am wrong but if you can't see it in the book then that's ok but I do feel that it renforces my feelings of him going to the Wedding.

I really do think that he only came as her friend, her best man. To say that Jacob should have just known that Edward and Bella were planning on having a normal honeymoon while she was still human is insane. After the Ethics chapter in Eclipse, Jacob put all his effort into getting over Bella. He left, he grieved in his own self-inflicted exile to try and move on from Bella. And while I agree that asking him to just "turn off the faucet" (love that way of putting it btw) of love he had for Bella in crazy, insisting that he went to that wedding with malicious intent is even crazier. He had a massive curve ball thrown his way that he never saw coming and that Bella threw at him, and you fault him for loosing it a bit?
As for re-reading that part of BD again, I've read all of these books so many times that I can see perfectly the exact words in my head without my book, thankyouverymuch. And I still say with a straight face that Jacob went to that wedding with the best of intentions and had a bomb dropped on him by his best friend and the girl that he was trying very hard not to love in the wrong way that he just couldn't handle. I don't fault him at all for the emotions he felt. He was IMO justified in feeling the worry for her wellbeing. He shouldn't have touched her in any way once he felt his control slipping. I was furious with him for laying a hand on her once his control started leaving, but I don't blame him for loosing it in the first place.
And one other thing. Everything being voiced on these forums are opinion. Please do not say that you're individual opinion is right, because it then implies that mine is wrong. And that in and of itself is wrong.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby spicey16 » Sun May 24, 2009 1:13 pm

part of the reason jacob went to the wedding was because he didnt think he'd be able to see bella afterwards. he thought she was going to be a vamp aka dead so he went to say his last goodbyes. He went with the intentions of being a good friend but the thought of her being crushed and riped apart was more then he could take, i think he realized that her being a vamp there would still be a chance of them being friends... i mean the old standard of kill all the vamps had kind of wore off.. and at least she would reachable then; however if she is actually killed (I'm talking about them having sex of course) that is too much for anyone to handle. to findout someone you love will be killed. so once again he loses it. I do not believe in any way shape or form he went to that wedding to cause a sence or for any reason other than the fact that he loves bella. he wanted her to be happy and he knew that that would make her happy. he also knew that she was becoming the enemy and that this was his last chance to see her as BELLA the bella he knew and loved was going to be gone forever so he put on a brave face and tried to be mature/strong/i cant think of the rigth word..... i really dont think jacobs flipping out had anything to do with them having sex it was about bella actually dying. bc as much as he wouldnt want to admit it being a vampire is better than being dead and gone forever.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 » Sun May 24, 2009 2:30 pm

Guys, so sorry I haven't been here in a while! I'm back for discussion! :D

Rebecca, I like what you said. It summarizes my opinion quite a bit. But there are some things I can't agree with. Yes, it always did involve what Jacob wanted, but it was never always what he wanted. He cared about what Bella wanted too, he didn't attempt destroying her wedding and making it fall apart and stop her from marrying Edward did he? He cares about what she wants. It's just that Edward just wants Bella to be happy, with him or without. Before the end of Eclipse, Jacob wanted Bella to be happy, just with him instead. He then realizes, she's happy with Edward and there's nothing he can do about it. Which is why he simply came to the wedding as a friend. The news just immediately angered him. It pushed the wrong button you could say. Trigger, boom.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby diane771 » Sun May 24, 2009 2:39 pm

RebeccaCullen wrote:
diane771 wrote:Well , vampirenerd its like a coin has two sides and I am all for talking, debating anyone who listens to my comments and then responds like you have and I do appreciate you doing that. Don't you think after all Edward had done to keep Bella safe up to that point and how Bella told Jacob how good of a person Edward was, even in Eclispe after the fight, Jacob had wanted Edward to be upset with Bella and him. But when Bella told Jacob he wasn't, Jacob still thought Edward was playing a game with Bella and him. Edward held Bella ing his arms that night while she just cried and cried, wanting to take the pain away and if it meant being with Jacob, Edward would wanted that. BUT Jacob tells Bella that he will always be in the wings waiting and then even when her heart stops beating maybe. So this is what I base my feelings on that Jacob should not have come to the wedding because it wasn't just as a friend Eclispe chapter 26 it was a very emotional chapter for both Jacob and Bella and he wasn't over her and he never accept Edward and never gave him anything but bad mouthing because Jacob was fighting for Bella.


What I put in red is one of the key reasons I always thought that Edward was better for Bella. Yes, Jake was a great friend to Bella when the Cullen's left, but he never really accepted the fact that Bella's heart belonged to Edward. This was the thing I found that really defined how different the two guys were. Edward was all for her and what made her happy, even if it wasn't with him. With Jake it seemed to be what he wanted.

I do get why Jake wanted to be there on her wedding day, and that he had accepted that she would never be his, he didn't seem to accept or consider that she could or would want a "normal" honeymoon. I get his concern, but Jake fails to see that what Bella and Edward do behind closed doors is really none of his business.

I always found Jake to be a bit of a hypocrite because he always said he would never hurt her, and yet assumed the worst of Edward who had said the same thing. Yes, Edward leaving did hurt her emotionally, but Jake grabbing a hold of her and shaking her like he did made him lucky that they didn't press charges against him. He had been told to let go, but didn't until the members of the pack and Edward made their way over.


Thanks I am glad to see that sometimes I make a little senses :lol: but this and the Eclispe chapter just makes it clear that Jacob was not going to let up on Bella and he said so even when she turned he might so with all that and the most important facts of not being the right place and it was not his business just adds up to me that he should not have come to the wedding. Thats all I been saying
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby diane771 » Sun May 24, 2009 2:53 pm

Renesmee101 wrote:
diane771 wrote:
Here's the one kink I have with you're evaluation: that Jacob should have gotten to know Edward better.
The reason I have a problem understanding where you come from on that is that even though I agree that everyone would have been better off getting to know each other better, saying that Jake should have known Edward that well when they're naturally sworn enemies and in love with the same girl is kinda rediculous (sp?). Even with Edward's mindreading gift, he never truly tried to get to know Jacob as far as I've been able to see. If I'm wrong, please show me where I've missed it (p.s. I don't really count the tent scene because niether of them really got to know each other's personalities that night. They mainly just found out each others tactics for winning Bella) so that I can re-evaluate my thoughts. But to insist that Jacob should have known the ins and outs of a relationship that he dissaproved of and had been away from for months is crazy to me. So if you could explain that one a bit more, it'd help alot.

I was talking as everybody was saying Jacob came there as just a friend. So yes as her "best" friend and all the times Bella told him about Edward, he didn't believe it. So if you don't believe something and you feel that your friend is in danger, I know I would try and find out as much as I can, and Edward never ever put up road blocks towards Jacob for him to get to know him better. He was always going to do that for Bella's sake except it never happened. So no I don't think that I am asking something rdidulous at all. If Jacob had and Edward shut down fine. If Jacob refused over and orver and over so many times when Bella tried to tell him how Edward was, and all he said was Edward was playing a game. I would be courious if someone I cared for had all good things to say about someone I didn't like but I didn't even give a chance, I would try and get to know him and not throw out the snide and bad remarks and ruin my relationship with my best friend. But that is me and it wasn't Jacob. But after reading the chapter there is no way now that anyone can say it with a straight face that Jacob came as just Bella's friend and I am right! And I would like for you to read it and al least give me that much and not keep saying I am wrong but if you can't see it in the book then that's ok but I do feel that it renforces my feelings of him going to the Wedding.

I really do think that he only came as her friend, her best man. To say that Jacob should have just known that Edward and Bella were planning on having a normal honeymoon while she was still human is insane. After the Ethics chapter in Eclipse, Jacob put all his effort into getting over Bella. He left, he grieved in his own self-inflicted exile to try and move on from Bella. And while I agree that asking him to just "turn off the faucet" (love that way of putting it btw) of love he had for Bella in crazy, insisting that he went to that wedding with malicious intent is even crazier. He had a massive curve ball thrown his way that he never saw coming and that Bella threw at him, and you fault him for loosing it a bit?
As for re-reading that part of BD again, I've read all of these books so many times that I can see perfectly the exact words in my head without my book, thankyouverymuch. And I still say with a straight face that Jacob went to that wedding with the best of intentions and had a bomb dropped on him by his best friend and the girl that he was trying very hard not to love in the wrong way that he just couldn't handle. I don't fault him at all for the emotions he felt. He was IMO justified in feeling the worry for her wellbeing. He shouldn't have touched her in any way once he felt his control slipping. I was furious with him for laying a hand on her once his control started leaving, but I don't blame him for loosing it in the first place.
And one other thing. Everything being voiced on these forums are opinion. Please do not say that you're individual opinion is right, because it then implies that mine is wrong. And that in and of itself is wrong.


Its in sane for married couples to have a honeymoon and for someone who does not know that Edward is just going to try gives Jacob the reason to react the way he did!!! How can you say that??? You are assuming that he put it behind him.
You are assuming that he could handle it. If he could then, he would never blown up at the wedding. I am so tired of people saying that he only did it for Bella's safety . What about Edward have you forgotten Edward? Have you totaly forgotten all the times he saved her. Do you think he was going to turn into this monster on the honeymoon? No you don't only Jacob because it ridicuous because we know better and if Jacob had his emotions under control and he let Bella go completely then there would be no problem but he could not do that. so he should not come as only a friend. I respect that you feel differently but I do see that you just can't turn your feelings off like that. So no Jacob did not only come there as a friend and he had no business to queston Bella or Edward about something that he knew nothing about and that was what they decided on at the honeymoon.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby amethyst » Sun May 24, 2009 3:00 pm

Okay, whether Jacob came to the wedding to be Bella’s friend or not is debatable--and opinions may differ because the situation is a matter of interpretation. I have argued my opinion for a quite a while so I won’t go there anymore.

However, I don’t think it’s true that Jacob ever cared about what Bella wants or what makes Bella happy. In Eclipse, he was always motivated by what he wants and what he thinks is best for Bella. He even refused to accept her feelings for Edward, and argued against them. Such as: Edward is Bella’s entire life whether she’s in love with Jacob or not, he is her entire life as Bella keeps telling us over and over again. How could Jacob possibly know that that is not true? He simply can’t.

The wedding is not a good example to show that Jacob came for Bella, and Bella alone--the fact that he found the thought of destroying her wedding on purpose appealing and tempting notwithstanding that he never acted upon those desires still puts Jacob in a position that he is willing to disregard Bella’s wants in order to satisfy his. And if I believe, that was one of the reasons that Sam and the others came to keep a watch on Jacob.

While it’s indisputable to doubt that Jacob is a genuinely good person who cares and loves Bella, what is written on the page sometimes doesn’t always live up to that statement, in my opinion.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby Renesmee101 » Sun May 24, 2009 5:34 pm

diane771 wrote:Its in sane for married couples to have a honeymoon and for someone who does not know that Edward is just going to try gives Jacob the reason to react the way he did!!! How can you say that???

I never said it was insane for married couples to have a honeymoon. And I definitly said that Jacob NEVER should have touched Bella once he started loosing his grip. I don't fault him for his initial emotional response because its a split second reaction.
diane771 wrote:You are assuming that he put it behind him.

I am assuming that Jacob put it behind him because I clearly think higher of him than you do. I truly believe that had Jake thought for an instant that he would loose control and ruin her wedding, he never would have showed. He probably would have sent Quil or Embry with a present in his place.
diane771 wrote:You are assuming that he could handle it. If he could then, he would never blown up at the wedding. I am so tired of people saying that he only did it for Bella's safety .

You're in a free forum!! You've got to know that if you voice your opinion that someone else is going to have a different one and voice it!! That's just life, and if you're sick of hearing it, then you should have dropped it when you had the chance.
diane771 wrote:What about Edward have you forgotten Edward? Have you totaly forgotten all the times he saved her.

What does that have to do with ANYTHING?! However many times Edward has saved her has nothing to do with the fact that Jacob thought that it was unsafe for Edward and Bella to get funky between the sheets while she was still human.
diane771 wrote:Do you think he was going to turn into this monster on the honeymoon?

Of course I don't. BUT I'm not arguing what I thought was going to happen. I'm arguing what was going through Jacob's mind in the three seconds between when he had the "I'm having sex with my vamp husband while I'm still human" bomb dropped on him and he lost control completly. And honestly, Edward hadn't done too much to show Jacob the he could trust him implicitly at that point. I know that we as outside readers saw that Edward would sooner throw himself into a fire than hurt her, but from what Jacob had seen and heard, there wasn't much to go on. And lets not forget that Edward and Jacob are natural enemies, which makes it hard for them to be in close proximity to each other, let alone trust each other.
diane771 wrote:No you don't only Jacob because it ridicuous because we know better and if Jacob had his emotions under control and he let Bella go completely then there would be no problem but he could not do that. so he should not come as only a friend. I respect that you feel differently but I do see that you just can't turn your feelings off like that. So no Jacob did not only come there as a friend and he had no business to queston Bella or Edward about something that he knew nothing about and that was what they decided on at the honeymoon.

But you said it yourself. WE knew. Jacob didn't. We had known for a long long time that Edward and Bella were planning on having sex on their honeymoon. This was the first time Jacob had ever even heard that was potentially an option, let alone actually happening. What did you think would happen? That he would just go, "Gee, bella. I've spent months alone in the wilds of Canada getting over you, and I still love you as a best friend, but if you want to do this highly risky and potentially life-threatening act, go ahead. I'll just be chillin' here until you either do or don't come home."??
As for his original intent. I don't think the pack would have even allowed him to come back to Forks, let alone Bella's wedding if they thought that he would try and intentionally sabatoge the happiest night of her human life. There was enough of them, and they had enough of a heads up to cut any plans of that kind in the bud as soon as he crossed the border.
I agree that he shouldn't have asked the question, but Bella was the one who prodded it out of him, and then when he tried to move past it, she was the one who pushed the conversation to a breaking point. And, he never once asked Edward a single question. he threatened his life once he'd gone off the emotional deep-end, but thats the only contact he and Edward had about the subject.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby diane771 » Sun May 24, 2009 7:35 pm

Renesmee101
I was using a broad term when and I wasn't singling only you out for the honeymoon statement so don't think it was just aimed at you.
[quote am assuming that Jacob put it behind him because I clearly think higher of him than you do. I truly believe that had Jake thought for an instant that he would loose control and ruin her wedding, he never would have showed. He probably would have sent Quil or Embry with a present in his place.
][/quote]

Well you can't assume how I feel about anything because you do not know me so you are wrong. I get my opinion of Jacob at the wedding based on the book and what his actions and the way he talks. I don't try to assume that I know a character just because I like or hate them, So you who say that Jacob was so in love with Bella should be the first to say that he should not go because it would hurt him too much. Yet you are telling him to go, You are saying its no big deal that he gets enraged about Bella's and Edward's private life its beyond me why you are saying its ok . If my best friend was in love with someone and they were marrying someone else I would do everything I could do to keep my friend away from the wedding because of the pain that it would cause. So not only am I on the side of ruining Bella's wedding, not knowing Edward better, getting into someones personal life that wasn't any business of his. I also think that the pain of going was having on Jacob. And you can say I don't know Jacob, I know what I read and I can read and I know that Sam and the pack didn't even think he could handle it so why do people here think that its ok? Well no harm came of it and I am so Glad because of all the humans, vamps and wolves and I have always said this and gave numerous pieces of the book on how I cam to my opinion, so thats ok if you don't agree, and I don't have a problem and I know that you must feel as strongly as I do about coming. So I can only say its a Draw.
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Re: Jacob Black

Postby Renesmee101 » Sun May 24, 2009 7:47 pm

Diane: I'm willing to just drop this all together since niether of us are going to agree in any way on this subject.

Anywho, I've been thinking about Jacob and Leah being together lately, and I was wondering what everyones opinions are on their relationship. ie, did you read it as platonic, potentially romantic, brother/sister?
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