Edward Cullen #4

[holdingoutforjacob]

I think we, as the reader, tend to discount Edward's pain when we read from Bella's POV. Let's face it - Bella's not the most perceptive to the pain of others. That definitely limits us. Also, to a person who has an average amount of affection for and interest in Edward, such as myself, I don't read him as carefully as you do, Jazz Girl. You read Edward the way I read Jacob, which is probably why we each feel "our character's" intense pain where others are like.... What are you talking about??

I think that we can see Edward's pain through Jacob's eyes brilliantly. But Jacob is a very perceptive person. He knows pain, he's experienced pain at the hands of Bella. But beyond that, he also just gets emotions. He could always tell when Bella was upset or what she liked or didn't like, remember? Well, some of that was probably cuz it was Bella, but in order for him to be that good at it, he must have just been someone who could see feeling very well. It would be interesting to see some other scenes from Jacob's POV, for clarity's sake, although I'm sure that it might not make him any fans.

As for the kiss. Well, I love that kiss. It's one of the best kisses I've ever read. But, I totally get where you all are coming from. If I were Team Edward, I'd want to throttle Bella. I've never really considered Edward's pain at this, because whenever I talk about this situation I'm usually defending Jacob (who's actions here really are quite understandable, while wrong, PM if you're curious). But I imagine it must have been terrible. While we, as the reader, pretty much knew she would end up with Edward, he sincerely doubted it. And, what's more, the most selfless part of him wanted her to be with Jacob.

I think, though, that we can all take solace in the fact that Edward is very wise. He knows that it will be better for his and Bella's relationship in the long run if she experiences the alternative a little bit, or at least considers it. He's always trying to make sure she has human experiences and is conciously considering her choice. It's my favorite part of him, that selflessness. Most people don't even have that, even really really deep down. Can you imagine finding your true love and actually wanting them to be with someone else because you knew you were a "monster"? POOR EDWARD!!!

Are you happy Twilight1909?? JK that was fun! Thanks for urging me to pop over.

[Dovrebanen]

There's no need for me to reply to this question because you answered it just like I would.
"I think that Bella displayed some disregard for Edward's feelings and pain when she continued to spend time with Jacob, and especially when she kissed Jacob in Eclipse."
I was disappointed and angry with her for that. It all started when she didn't want to marry Edward even though she wants to spend eternity with him...but I'll avoid that tangent for all of our sakes.

Twilight1909 but this is my point. I want you to take that tangent. I actually think that Bella was the most guilty of ignoring Edward's capacity to feel pain, that she was so used to seeing him as this godlike creature that she didn't think that anything she did was capable of hurting him, thus hurting him all the more. Run with it. Gods know, I plan to...

Yes, thank you I have so much to say about that matter.. I think you are so right that Bella felt that nothing she could do would ever hurt Edward. If she could see how much he loved her, how could she not see his pain? It is just beyond me to understand. When she kept going to Jacob, needing Jacob and lighting up whenever she saw him. How could she not see how that was hurting Edward? Of course, she should be able to keep her friends even if she has a boyfriend, but she should have seen that the way she was with Jacob was no ordinary friendship. I think that Edward never really displayed his pain in front of her, so it was hard for Bella to see it. He usually just clenched his jaw or sighed, and then composed his face before Bella had time to see the real pain. She could hurt him so much. He already saw himself as this monster, not worthy of being loved. And deep down he also saw what other life Bella could have had, and he wanted that for her. So it would be extremely hurtful to see her run of with Jacob.

As for the kiss. Well, I love that kiss. It's one of the best kisses I've ever read. But, I totally get where you all are coming from. If I were Team Edward, I'd want to throttle Bella. I've never really considered Edward's pain at this, because whenever I talk about this situation I'm usually defending Jacob (who's actions here really are quite understandable, while wrong, PM if you're curious). But I imagine it must have been terrible. While we, as the reader, pretty much knew she would end up with Edward, he sincerely doubted it. And, what's more, the most selfless part of him wanted her to be with Jacob.

It was a well written kiss, by all means But I was just super-mad at that point. I wanted to rip Bella's throat out myself when she started kissing him back. And then when she felt bad about it afterwards.. Well, she should have thought about that a few minutes before. You can't just do something like that. It showed a complete disregard for the feelings of both Edward and Jacob. Giving Jacob some shred of hope that she knew she probably couldn't live up to, while hurting Edward so much at the same time. And I can't believe that he wasn't mad at her. He should have been. I think that would have made her open her eyes a bit, and see the consequences of her actions. So I think that Edward was just to much selfless for his and her own good.

[TillyWhitlock]

It was a well written kiss, by all means But I was just super-mad at that point. I wanted to rip Bella's throat out myself when she started kissing him back. And then when she felt bad about it afterwards.. Well, she should have thought about that a few minutes before. You can't just do something like that. It showed a complete disregard for the feelings of both Edward and Jacob. Giving Jacob some shred of hope that she knew she probably couldn't live up to, while hurting Edward so much at the same time. And I can't believe that he wasn't mad at her. He should have been. I think that would have made her open her eyes a bit, and see the consequences of her actions. So I think that Edward was just to much selfless for his and her own good.

I agree with you about wanting to rip out Bella's throat at this point. But she does say that she knows she was hurting him. Part of her brain was asking why is she doing this? Why is she kissing him back? She knew she was hurting both Jake and Edward. However, the more she kissed Jake, the more that little part of her brain with feelings for Jake took over. She lost herself in that moment, and as wrong as it was, Edward could see why she did it. I can almost say that it's true that Edward doesn't get mad at her. But he's a guy so naturally he did get mad about it. He saw it first hand from Jake after it happened. As much as Edward didn't want to see it, Seth saw it so Edward saw it. And it probably did piss him off that she kissed Jake like that. But when he walks into the tent and she's laying face down on the floor, he knows that she feels HORRIBLE for what she did. She's sorry she did it, but he knows why she did it. He wanted her to experience things for herself. And she did. She fell in love while he was away. She may not have known it at the time, but she did. He will never hold that against her. So the kiss goes along with that. The kiss made her realize that she was in love with Jake, and that she has been in love with Jake. It's just that because he left, anything that happened when he left, he feels responsible for. So I think he kind of shoulders the blame for Bella falling in love with Jake. He feels like he drove her to this. So I think not only is Edward mad at her and Jake for kissing each other, but he's mad at himself for putting her in that position to fall in love with Jake.

[Dovrebanen]

Tilly, I agree with you on a lot of points. Edward was of course mad. But I still think that he should have showed that he was mad, and not keep it all boiled up inside. He should have at least told her how he felt about it, and not been so damn understanding all the time. And yes, Bella did see that it hurt him, but she did it anyway. And I just don't think that that is something you should do if you are in a committed relationship. She should have been able to figure out what she wanted without kissing Jake. So I still think that she showed a disregard for the feelings of both of the guys when she kissed Jacob back. I understand that she got lost in the moment with Jake, but I still annoys me to no end. Just minutes after the kiss, she was crying and feeling miserable. She knew that she could never choose to be without Edward, so it was very wrong to kiss Jake. I can't see that it helped the least for Jacob to have Bella realize that was in love with him too. For me, I think that would only have increased the pain when she still chose Edward.

He feels like he drove her to this. So I think not only is Edward mad at her and Jake for kissing each other, but he's mad at himself for putting her in that position to fall in love with Jake.

.
I think that is very true. I know that Edward would never stop blaming himself for leaving. So yes, he understands why she fell in love with Jake. And I'm sure that Edward knows that Bella loves him in a deeper way than she loves Jake. So that probably makes it a little easier for him to understand. And of course when she ends up chosing to be with Edward, he will know that her love is truly genuine since she has experienced another love and walked away from it to be with Edward.
I guess it could be just me..I can have quite a temper myself, so I just wish Edward could try to stand up for himself, instead of trying to make Bella feel better all the time.
This post may belong more in the Bella-thread or the Edward/Bella. It's just impossible to separate things, and I get carried away

[ForJazz926]

As far as discounting Edward's feelings because he's a vampire, I think I did the opposite. Since had such a greater capacity for both love and pain, and so much more to lose, I was constantly worrying about how he must be feeling. My heart was constantly breaking for him.

But the first time I read the series, I discounted BELLA's pain, thinking she was being overly dramatic, considering the fact that almost every teenage girl goes through things like love, loss, triangles, and decisions. I wanted her to just man up, basically - because regardless of the fact that her love was a vampire and her other love was a werewolf, she's just one among many girls who have gone through the same thing. I'd contradict myself and say that there was the added factor of impending death, but Bella seemed to worry about everything else much more than that - her main concern was the other stuff. The second read through I really sympathized more, though.

[Moonlit Sunlight]

I'm collecting opinions: Where do you suppose Edward hung out while he was waiting for the Volturi's verdict on whether or not they would destroy him?

well... i'm thinking that he was going from one place to another... broken and thinking about bella and what they could have been if he hadn't left.... because when he tries walking into the sun and bella's right there he's like "amazing calisle was right." and he tuched her face and stared at her adoringly. but that's wha i think based on what it said in new moon after bella found him... for all we know he could have been at a club or something....

[♥midnight_sun♥]

I'm collecting opinions: Where do you suppose Edward hung out while he was waiting for the Volturi's verdict on whether or not they would destroy him?

I think he was probably hurt and broken thinking about why Bella jumped off the cliff and what went wrong and if he would get lucky in his cruel existence to be able to see her again after his death...basically everything that could be related to Bella. I also think he was probably hiding out in a sewer or someplace dark and alone so he couldn't hear anyone's thoughts.

[Jazz Girl]

Twilight1909, HoldingOutForJacob, DovreBanen, TillyWhitlock and ForJazz926~ wow. Thank you so much for all of your wonderful thoughts. I told Twilight1909 that I would run with this idea, so I am running.

Yes, I think as a whole, almost every other character in the saga discounted to some degree the depths of Edward's pain, regardless of the source. Whether it was the pain he experienced while trying to cut himself off from Bella, or the pain he experienced at the thought of actually losing her, or the pain he felt watching her crave the company of another man. To a certain degree, I can accept it, though, from almost all of them. For all of those reasons that many have named; Edward's life experiences, his maturity, his amazing self control, his ability to completely seperate himself from a situation and so many others, it makes sense that many view him as just unaffected by the machinations of the human world.

But, from Bella, I find her inability....refusal...whatever it was...to accept that she had truly become the one person with the power to wound Edward mortally infuriating. Especially after the events in NM, when Edward intended to kill himself because he thought she was dead, that should have been a revelation to her. She held the power of life and death over this, as she saw him, godlike creature, who was ultimately just a man so deeply in love with her that he was willing to do ANYTHING to keep her safe and happy.

In some ways, I can understand Bella's behavior. She is an 18-year-old young woman dealing with a world so far beyond comprehension. At times, she needs the release of being just another teenaged girl. But, at the same time, everything she does is so concerned with everyone other than herself, whether it is her father, mother, Angela, Jessica, Jacob, whomever. Yet, repeately, the person she claims to love most in the world is always at the bottom of that list. Yes, as most of you have pointed out, Edward made it a point to hide any kind of hurt from Bella, to shield her from his feelings as long as she was safe and happy. But, shouldn't she have known, whether he showed her or not? If she truly loved him, shouldn't she have known that he might be slightly threatened by the time she felt compelled to spend with her best friend who was in love with her, totally pursuing her and also happened to be his mortal enemy? Shouldn't she have realized that hopping on the back of Jacob's motorcycle, mere hours after his sister explained just how terrified of losing her he was might wound him just a little? Might she not be able to see that Edward blames himself for every horrible thing that has ever happened to her, whether or not it is rational, and to hold him at arms length at the time when the only thing keeping him alive is somehow being able to comfort and protect her is the cruelest thing she can do?

I don't doubt the love between Edward and Bella. I never have. But, there are times when I seriously want to slap Bella silly because she takes so much for granted, throws so much back in Edward's face and then has the nerve to doubt his intentions, however briefly. Yes, Edward hurt Bella, put her through indescribably pain. But, Bella repaid the favor in equal, and I might argue a little greater measure.

[TillyWhitlock]

In some ways, I can understand Bella's behavior. She is an 18-year-old young woman dealing with a world so far beyond comprehension. At times, she needs the release of being just another teenaged girl. But, at the same time, everything she does is so concerned with everyone other than herself, whether it is her father, mother, Angela, Jessica, Jacob, whomever. Yet, repeately, the person she claims to love most in the world is always at the bottom of that list. Yes, as most of you have pointed out, Edward made it a point to hide any kind of hurt from Bella, to shield her from his feelings as long as she was safe and happy. But, shouldn't she have known, whether he showed her or not? If she truly loved him, shouldn't she have known that he might be slightly threatened by the time she felt compelled to spend with her best friend who was in love with her, totally pursuing her and also happened to be his mortal enemy? Shouldn't she have realized that hopping on the back of Jacob's motorcycle, mere hours after his sister explained just how terrified of losing her he was might wound him just a little? Might she not be able to see that Edward blames himself for every horrible thing that has ever happened to her, whether or not it is rational, and to hold him at arms length at the time when the only thing keeping him alive is somehow being able to comfort and protect her is the cruelest thing she can do?

I do completely agree with you Jazz. I think one of the most vital points where you actually get to see Edward's pain without him masking it, but Bella being just unobservant is the entire motorcycle fiasco. He bought the Ducati because it was something that she enjoyed doing. Edward was so into doing it with her that he went out and spent the money to get one for himself. It shouldn't have mattered that Jake taught her how to ride it, Edward was willing to do it with her. If she loved him the most, she would have been completely okay with going out with him. But she wasn't and she made a semi big deal out of it. You can tell by the response that Edward had that it hurt him. He responded with I can see this is something you do with Jacob. Boom! When I read that line, I felt like slapping her. How could you really not see that it hurt him? I mean Rose had just explained to her not 48 hours earlier that Edward loves her so much more than she can see. It was ridiculous. I will never say that Bella had a good reason to kiss Jake. Edward deserves so much more than that. He's risking EVERYTHING for her. He breaks the rules as a vampire for her. All she does is cause him pain. He can see it and he knows that she's just going to hurt her. And I hate how he kinda just gives up on the whole fight with Jake. I think as soon as he let it go, he caused even more heartbreak. I adore Jake, I really do. But I think the triangle between the three of them is one of the most infuriating things I have ever read.

[twilight1909]

Twilight1909 but this is my point. I want you to take that tangent. I actually think that Bella was the most guilty of ignoring Edward's capacity to feel pain, that she was so used to seeing him as this godlike creature that she didn't think that anything she did was capable of hurting him, thus hurting him all the more. Run with it. Gods know, I plan to...

Hah, I love it. I figured I should save my Bella rants, but you're right, that's the point of your question. And I can never decline an invitation to run with my tangents. You beat me to the punch though. I agree with your own response so I'll add what I can to it.

It really disappoints me how Bella is so in love with Edward and yet she seems to disregard his pain on multiple occasions. A part of that is her age and the circumstances, but another part of it is because Edward is too good for her. Let's be honest here. He would never accuse her of causing him pain, only the other way around. He thought he deserved whatever pain he got. Edward only held Bella accountable if her safety was involved. Forget his happiness. I think she's undeserving of his selflessness, understanding, and do-anything-for-you kind of love. Of course I read that Bella does feel guilty about sneaking off to see Jacob, holding his hand, etc... I just don't think she ever realized the implications of her actions or the depth of Edward's pain. Even in the beginning. Bella's so quick to overlook the physical and emotional struggle that Edward constantly deals with just by being around her. She takes it for granted and tries her hardest to push him too far beyond his control and comfort. This is more understandable though. Bella simply can't relate to what Edward deals with. She only gets a taste of that once she becomes a vampire. And who wouldn't want to jump his bones? I really can't blame her for that one.

Now, Bella's hesitancy..no, flat out reluctance to marry Edward. Are you serious? Bella is asking for Edward to make his biggest moral sacrifice to date by damning her soul and turning her into the monster he has to fight against every second of every day (at least that's how he sees it), and ALL he asks for in return is a marriage ceremony. He even has to explain why he wants that so badly and what it would mean to him before Bella finally accepts the offer, which is really only because she wants to have sex with him and not because she cares enough to give Edward something he wants for a change. I don't care if she didn't believe in marriage. What's so scary about the center of your universe becoming your husband when you plan on being a vampire? She was asking for the most serious commitment that can ever be made: an eternity together. Divorce experience and local stigma are lousy excuses. Again I think she disregarded Edward's pain by almost making him beg her to marry him. He hides it extremely well, but that doesn't mean it's not there. I cried when he proposed to her in Eclipse, for the second time, and Bella describes the way his eyes light up and he becomes exuberant just by looking at the ring on her finger. He deserves that happiness, and much more, without needing a compromise and persuasion tagged on to it. I was waiting for Bella to realize how ridiculous she was being. Of course it took actually walking down the aisle and saying their vows before it knocked her upside the head.

I don't feel that I should elaborate on Bella disregarding Edward's pain when it comes to Jacob. I don't have the time or energy to expend on that right now. Jazz Girl addressed it nicely.

And now Breaking Dawn. It was very painful to read when Bella was dying, Jacob was miserable, and Edward was dying and miserable. Obviously he wasn't really dying, but like HOFJ mentioned, we get the best glimpse of Edward's pain through Jacob's eyes. "The burning man." He was dealing with so much torture and suffering. Reading those descriptions in Jacob's book made me all the more angry with Bella. I understand she was trying to stay alive and nurture her baby, but did she even notice what she put Edward through? Did she care? It sure didn't seem like it. Their love, connection, and overall relationship took the back burner. Bella didn't communicate enough with him, nor did she try. Edward's presence didn't even matter to her. She just hid behind Rosalie and smiled whenever Jacob came around.

Whew, alright. I think I'm done running.

As for the kiss. Well, I love that kiss. It's one of the best kisses I've ever read. But, I totally get where you all are coming from. If I were Team Edward, I'd want to throttle Bella. I've never really considered Edward's pain at this, because whenever I talk about this situation I'm usually defending Jacob (who's actions here really are quite understandable, while wrong, PM if you're curious). But I imagine it must have been terrible. While we, as the reader, pretty much knew she would end up with Edward, he sincerely doubted it. And, what's more, the most selfless part of him wanted her to be with Jacob.

I think, though, that we can all take solace in the fact that Edward is very wise. He knows that it will be better for his and Bella's relationship in the long run if she experiences the alternative a little bit, or at least considers it. He's always trying to make sure she has human experiences and is conciously considering her choice. It's my favorite part of him, that selflessness. Most people don't even have that, even really really deep down. Can you imagine finding your true love and actually wanting them to be with someone else because you knew you were a "monster"? POOR EDWARD!!!

Are you happy Twilight1909?? JK that was fun! Thanks for urging me to pop over.

I expect us to have opposite reactions to the kiss. I'm really surprised you didn't consider Edward's pain about it though. It was so sad to me that he just walks away while knowing what's going to happen. It's even more sad that the selfless part of him wants Bella to choose Jacob. And it's sad that he holds her all night while she cries over the loss of a different love. Like you said, poor Edward! He handles it extremely well.

Oh and yes, I'm happy. You don't have to be interested in every topic to post here you know. Just jump in whenever you want. Most of us respond in similar ways to people's questions. You bring a different perspective.