Edward Cullen #4

[ringswraith]

Well, holdingoutforjacob, before I can comment on your post, I'd like to ask you to clarify a couple of your points.

First, the angel: What do you mean, leaning towards the feminine side?

Second, the downfall of melodrama: Why do you say it's a feminine trait?

[Jazz Girl]

Let me start my post by saying that it is very hard for me to say that this characteristic is masculine vs feminine. I struggle with it because I think that it can be sometime degrading in the way that we do it. That's probably why that "article" snapped my teeth together so hard in the first place. But, it is at the root of who we are as a society, so I completely accept it and engage in it every day. I am probably just a little harder on myself about it than most of you. That being said...

Yes! Yes! Yes! Thank you all. I think everyone of you hit the nail on the head, as it were in that the version of a "normal" (thanks Rings- I hate that word as well) male is more akin to a cave troll than a man. As I was reading their *cough* article, I found myself cursing (A LOT!) and pointing out two facts repeatedly. 1) Edward is a gentleman's gentleman and a man's man. And it is absolutely possible to be both. 2) Edward was raised in a tVERY different time, and it was a much more genteel and civil time at that. But, that did not excuse him from the expectations of his gender. It was just a time when men were so much more open to being both a man and a gentelman.

I cannot state it any better than Ringswraith did: "Everything about Edward practically screams manhood- hunter, protector, provider." In my mind, Edward embodies strength (both physical AND emotional), integrity, courage and honor. And those are the qualities by which I measure a man. I absolutely despise that there is such a negative connotation towards men who make any attempt to understand and express their emotions. I am raising two sons, and to be perfectly honest, it is a b!tch of a thing to do. It is so hard when they get constant mixed messages. Everyday, the world tells them to be hard and tough and, let's admit it, downright disrespectful and mean at times. And then they come home and I try to tell them that it is okay to feel what you feel, that understanding and expressing your feelings is a good thing, a healthy thing, and being nice and accepting of people is a good thing to do. And the next day, the go back to school and are called "a girl" because they fall and get hurt or someone says something horrible and they stick up for the other child. I tell my oldest son in particular that, other than his father and grandfathers, the best roll model I can offer him is Edward Anthony Masen Cullen.

As for why I think we women are attracted to him, well I can only speak for myself. But, this is where, and it seriously pains me to admit this, but the authors actually have a point, from a certain point of view. If, in their estimation, having no fear of one's emotions or expressing those emotions is a feminine characteristic; allowing one's self to live completely for another person is a feminine trait, and willingness to always be the absolute best person that you can be is a female thing, than, yeah, I guess in that case, I absolutely love Edward Cullen for being the woman of my dreams. My advice to the Normal Mormon Husbands is to pay a little bit more attention to who Edward is, what he does and how he conducts himself. It is very clear that you all at least (and a good number of other men out there as well) should take a page, no several chapters, no even better the whole of Edward's book and learn a new definition of what a man is. There is a reason why we say on a regular basis that Edward Cullen ruined it for mortal men. It's because he reminded us of what a "real" man is supposed to be.

[holdingoutforjacob]

By the angel comment, I simply meant that he was being described as beautiful in a very gender-neutral way. I am not particularly religious, so if this comment offended anyone, you have my DEEPEST apologies. Really. If you feel I should edit that, I will. Feel free to PM me if you think that's the case.

The melodrama thing I will back up one hundred percent.To me, it is not manly to have the kind of meltdowns Edward has. The grand gesture of leaving Bella, then going to the Volturi, then the whole truck thing. I don't know. I just kind of feel like a man deals with his issues and works them out instead of flipping out and going to extremes.

I think it just comes down to what your idea of a man is. I could define mine, and I would be right. For me. You could define yours, and you would be right. For you.

Yes, everything about Edward does scream manhood - on paper. But his words, his actions, to me, they are not manly. Sorry if that's wrong.

[ringswraith]

Oh, not at all, holdingoutforjacob. I didn't mean my line of questioning to even imply that what you said is wrong. I simply wanted to understand where you were coming from.

For the angel comment, I don't really see it as a gender-neutral description. I have to remember that we're seeing Edward through Bella's eyes, and she often can't adequately express just how beautiful Edward is. An angel is supposed to have unearthly beauty- possibly the closest thing Bella can think of that could even compare.

I doubt he looks androgynous at all, though. If he did, I'm sure Jacob would have pointed that out at some point.

As for the meltdown, I also disagree that it's specifically a female thing. I agree with your sentiment that men are "supposed to" deal with their issues and get on with it- it's kind of how society programs men to behave. However, Romeo went to extremes when he saw Juliet and thought she was dead. Would anyone call Romeo feminine in that regard? I doubt it. Edward did the same thing.

[Lunna-san]

Rings : Great post, Rings! You rock!

HOFJ: I recall of Bella saying something like "Your are sort of beautiful" to Jake in NM. Sorry, I don't recall the page. So, I think this is due the classics Bella enjoys reading? Okay, I was reading "Northager Abbey", from Jane Austen on the other day and she used, a few times, handsome to discribe women, furniture, etc. Well, English is not my first language, so I assume, this is an old fashioned way of using the words beautiful and handsome? Just a thought, sorry if it is off topic.

[holdingoutforjacob]

You are correct, Luna-Sann. I, too, recalled that.

Edward just doesn't have a lot of masculinity, at all. Which is OK.

[amethyst]

I think it is safe to say that all three “main” characters are melodramatic at one point or another. Yes, I am talking about Jacob, holdingoutforjacob. Do you honestly believe (I am just curious here) that melodrama makes a person, or a man/boy (Edward in this case) less “manly” simply because their actions come of that way? It’s true, some of Edward’s overreactions and or actions can be construed as dramatic and that’s simply fine. But is he melodramatic. . . ? is it a defined characteristic of his . . . That, I can’t agree with.

As for the angel comment. I am not sure, but I’d venture Stephenie Meyer is quite religious, and so am I. I am pretty sure our religions are very closely related . . . Anyways, my point is from all that I know, angels are ever rarely (more like never) are females. And Bella describing Edward as “angel like”, like ringswraith mentioned is just a word that (to Bella) can describe Edward’s beauty to what it truly is.

Jazz Girl (I love reading your long posts) and Lunna-san along with ringswraith excellent points!!!

Out of curiosity Lunna-san what's your mother tongue? Your english is actually amazing. I am too, fluent in another language except in my case I am not sure exactly if English is my first or second. I would say second. But oh well.

[Kachiti]

As for the meltdown, I also disagree that it's specifically a female thing. I agree with your sentiment that men are "supposed to" deal with their issues and get on with it- it's kind of how society programs men to behave. However, Romeo went to extremes when he saw Juliet and thought she was dead. Would anyone call Romeo feminine in that regard? I doubt it. Edward did the same thing.

Ringswraith, I agree with you about the meltdown issue. Some of have the experience of being around some males that I wanted to just slap and say get a grip. I'm talking the about the world of college. And I accept but I disagree with HOFJ, when she said definition of a man is not Edward. I mean some women might like their a little rough around the edges and I'm not talking about subhuman male from the article. While others prefer a more refined manly man.
If anything, this forum has proved over and over again how we can all read the same passage but yet have different understanding of what it means. After all we are seeing Edward from Bella's pov.

As for Romeo, I thought he was confuse, moody and whiny teenager who needed to grow up. Not to say its not a nice love story.

[navarre]

Let me start my post by saying that it is very hard for me to say that this characteristic is masculine vs feminine. I struggle with it because I think that it can be sometime degrading in the way that we do it. That's probably why that "article" snapped my teeth together so hard in the first place. But, it is at the root of who we are as a society, so I completely accept it and engage in it every day. I am probably just a little harder on myself about it than most of you. That being said...

Yes! Yes! Yes! Thank you all. I think everyone of you hit the nail on the head, as it were in that the version of a "normal" (thanks Rings- I hate that word as well) male is more akin to a cave troll than a man. As I was reading their *cough* article, I found myself cursing (A LOT!) and pointing out two facts repeatedly. 1) Edward is a gentleman's gentleman and a man's man. And it is absolutely possible to be both. 2) Edward was raised in a tVERY different time, and it was a much more genteel and civil time at that. But, that did not excuse him from the expectations of his gender. It was just a time when men were so much more open to being both a man and a gentelman.

I cannot state it any better than Ringswraith did: "Everything about Edward practically screams manhood- hunter, protector, provider." In my mind, Edward embodies strength (both physical AND emotional), integrity, courage and honor. And those are the qualities by which I measure a man. I absolutely despise that there is such a negative connotation towards men who make any attempt to understand and express their emotions. I am raising two sons, and to be perfectly honest, it is a b!tch of a thing to do. It is so hard when they get constant mixed messages. Everyday, the world tells them to be hard and tough and, let's admit it, downright disrespectful and mean at times. And then they come home and I try to tell them that it is okay to feel what you feel, that understanding and expressing your feelings is a good thing, a healthy thing, and being nice and accepting of people is a good thing to do. And the next day, the go back to school and are called "a girl" because they fall and get hurt or someone says something horrible and they stick up for the other child. I tell my oldest son in particular that, other than his father and grandfathers, the best roll model I can offer him is Edward Anthony Masen Cullen.

As for why I think we women are attracted to him, well I can only speak for myself. But, this is where, and it seriously pains me to admit this, but the authors actually have a point, from a certain point of view. If, in their estimation, having no fear of one's emotions or expressing those emotions is a feminine characteristic; allowing one's self to live completely for another person is a feminine trait, and willingness to always be the absolute best person that you can be is a female thing, than, yeah, I guess in that case, I absolutely love Edward Cullen for being the woman of my dreams. My advice to the Normal Mormon Husbands is to pay a little bit more attention to who Edward is, what he does and how he conducts himself. It is very clear that you all at least (and a good number of other men out there as well) should take a page, no several chapters, no even better the whole of Edward's book and learn a new definition of what a man is. There is a reason why we say on a regular basis that Edward Cullen ruined it for mortal men. It's because he reminded us of what a "real" man is supposed to be.

As always, beautifully articulated. Much classier than my mini-rant that I gave in Edward & Bella thread. You think it snapped your teeth together? My eyes went red! I would like to add regarding his manly, physical descriptions.
Edward, to me is a man among men. Period. He is described by Bella as chisled with a strong, masculine jawline, long torsoed, lean hipped.....*shakes head to clear it* He is very strong in appearance and his voice is rich and velvety. Like Blood for Chocolate....*keeps shaking the head to clear it* Ahem.
He is the epitome of a very fine man - the essence of man. He's Edward Cullen.

[twilightsagaaddict]

Exactly what did the author(s) of this article base their conclusions on? (I have not read the article as well-only what JG had in her original post.) Did they base them on observed behavior? I, for one, do not see anything attractive in the "cave troll" they describe.

As has been stated, and I completely agree, that Edward Cullen personifies the "ideal man". It is his masculinity, his compassion, his ability to communicate his feelings, his manners ~ all of these things make him who he is. Yes, he is a fictional character, but those are qualities that I find admirable.

How they can construe these things into female characteristics, I don't know.