Renesmee #2

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Re: Renesmee #2

Postby TNO » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:48 pm

Amanda Beth wrote:TNO,

I see some of your points and I know some people like to see reason in all decisions... but in this end this is just a fictional story and it doesn't really matter what makes sense or doesn't make sense.

You also keep saying "vampires can't have babies" They CANT have babies, females that is... no one said anything about the male side since before Edward and Bella it wasn't even fathomable to think a vampire could have that much self control. Not sure if this was posted but Stephenie explains herself: http://stepheniemeyer.com/bd_faq.html

First: Yes, it does matter that it makes sense! As I said before, I don't care if it doesn't make sense in terms of our world, with all our laws of nature, I don't care if it's something (like vampires) that would be simply impossible in this world. However, all stories- historical fiction, fantasy, science fiction, all of it- must make sense within themselves. Willing Suspension of Disbelief, remember? Randomly changing the rules- or even just using a new law that has never been even hinted at before to make a plot point (i.e, Wicked the Musical's sudden, "oh, Elphaba was so powerful because she was a halfling!" at the end, even though no evidence had previously been given to suggest halflings are more powerful than normal people) can destroy Willing Suspension of Disbelief. If a story has no continuity, if it continuously breaks the fourth wall, it becomes, well, ridiculous. Python-esque. Twilight isn't a crack series, so it should have continuity, and be internally realistic (that is, follow its own rules).
Second: Well, yes, I know that. In BD it suddenly becomes "female vamps can't have babies, but males can!" (which is really quite sexist, you know). However, in Twilight-NM-Eclipse (Eclipse especially if I remember correctly), Edward basically beats Bella over the head with "vampires can't have babies- period." There's no mention of male vampires being able to have babies with humans until BD. The implication being, vampires can't have babies- but oh wait the guys can! It's a lack of continuity issue. If Dhampirs exist in Twilight land, it should be mentioned- even in passing- before the final book when the protagonist has one rip its way out of her abdomen. If Ed had said something like, "Bella, once you're a vampire you won't be able to have children, because even though male vampires can fertilize human eggs, female vampires are unable to change and therefore unable to carry a developing fetus" and left it at that, I wouldn't have a problem with Renesmee's existence. Does that make sense?
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Re: Renesmee #2

Postby debussygirl » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:17 pm

If someone suddenly found the cure for AIDS or cancer, would we have to say "Wait a minute! We haven't had this before! This is lacking in continuity!"
No. Males vampires have ALWAYS had the ability to impregnate human women. Vampires just haven't known it before. So making the discovery that Edward and Bella could have a child doesn't make the series lack continuity. As far as the characters knew, vampires were sterile period. But all the time, the males actually could impregnate a human woman. Just no one knew it.
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Re: Renesmee #2

Postby ringswraith » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:30 pm

I agree with debussygirl. None of the main characters knew about the possibility, so why would they exhibit any knowledge about the matter? The people likely to know about it are ones that they've never interacted with: Joham(sp?) (Nahuel's "father"), who knew what he was doing but we never meet in the story; Nahuel, who we don't meet until the end, and only because Alice set out on a wild goose chase to find someone like him; Nahuel's aunt, same reason as Nahuel; and perhaps some tribe(s) of people who speak about these things in their legends.
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Re: Renesmee #2

Postby Dovrebanen » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:40 pm

debussygirl wrote:If someone suddenly found the cure for AIDS or cancer, would we have to say "Wait a minute! We haven't had this before! This is lacking in continuity!"
No. Males vampires have ALWAYS had the ability to impregnate human women. Vampires just haven't known it before. So making the discovery that Edward and Bella could have a child doesn't make the series lack continuity. As far as the characters knew, vampires were sterile period. But all the time, the males actually could impregnate a human woman. Just no one knew it.

I agree with you, debussygirl &rings. That is the way I saw it. They knew that two vampires couldn't have children together based on firsthand knowledge. So it was natural for the characters to assume that vampires couldn't have children at all. SM never said that vampire men wasn't able to have children. So the fact that they discovered that Edward could father a child did not show a lack of continuity, it showed a developement in the knowledge that the characters had. As far as the Cullens knew there had never been a sexual relationship between a male vampire and a female woman where she lived to tell about it. So they had no idea of knowing if a couple like that could have children. So they assumed that they couldn't.

There is a difference between men and women in that area in humans as well. Men can father children practically from puberty and until they die, while women become infertile at a relatively early age. So why wouldn't it be differences childbearing abilities in the vampire world as well? The main difference is the massive changes that the female body has to go through in order to carry a child, which is not neccessary for the man. Therefore Edward could produce a child, whereas Rosalie could not carry a child. IMO.
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Re: Renesmee #2

Postby opulent » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:03 am

TNO, you are saying that Nessie shouldn't have been able to "think in words" in the womb. I agree. However, the books illustrate that Nessie did not "think" in words. Even outside the womb. When she uses her gift, she thinks in pictures and feelings. Remember, Bella saw pictures in her head, she didn't hear words. And Edward can see these pictures when she is thinking them. And babies can feel things in the womb - babies like the sound of their mothers' voices. In real life, it's true, babies can feel "happiness" when they are safe, and warm, and feel protected in the womb. Ergo, Nessie could have felt that way in the womb and Edward would have "seen" her pictures. On top of that, she has awesome hearing - compliments of being half-vampire. Theoretically, she would have been able to hear her parents, or at least Bella, speaking the English language. Therefore, she would have been exposed to it, and able to learn it. So even if she did "think" in words, she could have done it.

As for the "mule" discussion - I know what a mule is. My point was, Mules are bred from two animals that are very different from humans. Mules themselves are very different from humans. So are Ligers. And in real life, there is no such thing as a human hybrid of a human and another creature. So why would a human/vampire hybrid have to be infertile? There is no proof that says that she would have to be infertile. To end it, the point is, we don't know if she is infertile or not, but there is no evidence that says she has to be infertile.

But I agree with you on the whole continuity thing - if one rule is established, then it should not be broken. That's part of what makes good fantasy believable. But it isn't inconsistent for the vampires to come by new knowledge, as someone said before. That is growth, which is dynamic, which is a good thing in most stories because it helps the characters to grow. The Cullens didn't know that male vampires could father babies. It is not unreasonable for them to learn otherwise. SM provides a reasonable explanation for this in the book. It does not break continuity.

And I have to say, those of you who are arguing "let it go - it's only fantasy, it's supposed to be unbelievable!" I disagree. Within the confines of it's own boundaries, the fantasy can be unbelievable, but what makes certain fantasy books great is that they follow their own rules. For the most part, the Twlight series does. And if we want to debate (reasonably) about a certain issue raised, then why can't we? To a certain extent, that is what this forum is for. As long as we stay on topic and don't get overheated about our own opinion, then please, stop reminding us that this is fantasy. WE KNOW THIS IS FANTASY. We are simply sharing thoughts and ideas, and it is somewhat irritating (at least to me) when someone interrupts the discussion to remind us all "It is only fantasy". If you don't have a more original comment, please don't repeat everyone else before you.

Okay. I'm done.
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Re: Renesmee #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:11 am

I agree with you Opulent. There's a difference between real-world rationalism and Twilight-world rationalism and also dismissing anything that doesn't seem to work because it's "fantasy". JRR Tolkein wrote entire languages for his "fantasy" books. A fictional world should still have it's own rules and follow them. However, with a few exceptions that aren't really pertinent to the plot so much, I think Twilight does.

I think that we can put all the speculation of "what if Nessie doesn't choose Jacob" and "what if Nessie's infertile" to rest. SM has said, and I quote, "they are good to go." Now, admittedly, she was discussing Nessie and Jacob aging at different rates. but if they're "good to go" for eternity, I would venture to guess that a) Nessie is supposed to be with Jacob and b) Nessie can have kids. Just saying.
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Re: Renesmee #2

Postby spicey16 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:38 pm

well i dont like the idea that they imprint just to have children but if Renesme and jacob do have a kid wouldnt it kind of really confuse the phasing? i mean, they are supposed to phase when vampires are near, well the baby will have its shifter side and its vampire side together 24/7. how would that work? I mean we have seen a vampire/werewolf hybred in Underworld and that was weird enough but to have them together when one is supposed to physically change bc of the other.. its just hard to imagine what the kid would be. sorry i know this isnt really about nessie.
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Re: Renesmee #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:19 am

Ewwww I saw the newest Underworld movie and it was awful awful awful! I HATED it!!! It totally freaked me out - I'm not one for much violence. I could tolerate The Dark Knight only once, because it was SO good, out of respect for my lover, Heath Ledger.

I think it pertains to Nessie, so it's acceptable IMO, especially since there's really nowhere else to discuss it, except maybe Jacob and Nessie.

Alright so that's a really good point. I want to say that maybe the kid won't have the phasing gene? But that wouldn't make sense. I guess she'll just be able to phase. I mean, it's not like "werewolf sees vampire and POOF!" right? It's more that the ABILITY to phase is triggered by the vampires. So I don't think it would really be a problem.
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Re: Renesmee #2

Postby Amanda Beth » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:03 am

I'm guessing their kids wouldn't have the phasing gene. She/He would be half human, quarter vampire and quarter werewolf/shapeshifter. What I wonder is if the kid would age since she would be mostly human. Wouldn't that be horrible? To watch your kid get old and die?
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Re: Renesmee #2

Postby ringswraith » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:29 am

Amanda Beth wrote:I'm guessing their kids wouldn't have the phasing gene. She/He would be half human, quarter vampire and quarter werewolf/shapeshifter. What I wonder is if the kid would age since she would be mostly human. Wouldn't that be horrible? To watch your kid get old and die?


I'm curious: Why do you think they wouldn't they have the phasing gene?
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