Twilight Lexicon Discussion Forums

twilight1909 wrote:

holdingoutforjacob wrote:in my mind, the implications of kissing someone without their "permission" are way more innocent than dismantling someone's truck

The truck thing is not so black and white, right or wrong. I just went in depth with this on the Edward and Bella thread. Disabling Bella's vehicle in the context of WHY Edward did it, in Twilight and not in the real world, and considering the fact that they had previously discussed this, makes it so much different than the way you refer to it. Bella essentially forced Edward to "control" her by making him follow through with his promise to stop her.
I think the fact that Jacob kissed Bella against her will, not just without permission, is a black and white issue. Especially since she was in a committed relationship with Edward.

I would much rather be with an overprotective man than one who tries to force himself on me when my heart is already taken...

For me the kiss was way worse than the truck incident. I just said it over on Bella, but it wont hurt to say it again. Jacob crossed a physical line. He kissed a girl against her will, and he even felt proud about it afterwards. If Bella was so mad that she actually punched him, that means that he was out of line. Bella was with another man. The kiss was not his to take.
As for the truck incident, I understood Edward a lot in that situation. I'm not saying that it was right, but I can understand. Edward couldn't go to La Push to make sure she stayed safe. She tried to hang on to two very separate worlds. She knew how Edward felt about her going to La Push. She knew that it would drive him insane with worry. And I think that was why she was so quick to forgive him.

I absolutely agree. What grits my teeth is that he completely disregarded Bella “pushing him away” from her, and instead held onto her more forcefully . . . The realization that she didn’t want him to kiss and to get the hell of off her didn’t make him stop at all, and then like you mentioned he had the audacity to feel proud of himself. Ridiculous. At least that foddered the most sexiest quote in literature, ever. “If you ever bring her back damaged again . . . I don’t care if she merely trips, or if a meteor falls out of the sky . . ." sigh.

twilight1909 wrote:

holdingoutforjacob wrote:in my mind, the implications of kissing someone without their "permission" are way more innocent than dismantling someone's truck

The truck thing is not so black and white, right or wrong. I just went in depth with this on the Edward and Bella thread. Disabling Bella's vehicle in the context of WHY Edward did it, in Twilight and not in the real world, and considering the fact that they had previously discussed this, makes it so much different than the way you refer to it. Bella essentially forced Edward to "control" her by making him follow through with his promise to stop her.
I think the fact that Jacob kissed Bella against her will, not just without permission, is a black and white issue. Especially since she was in a committed relationship with Edward.

I would much rather be with an overprotective man than one who tries to force himself on me when my heart is already taken...

Really? So someone trying desperately to save your life is out of the question then?

I don't mean to turn this into a Jacob vs. Edward comparison fight AT ALL. They both have a lot in common, and really, the most important things, they have in common - i.e. being a good person, lovingness, caring, compassion, responsibility. But the things that make them different, for some reason, are things that are apparently very polarizing. IMO, it's really silly to compare them as to which is better. I know, I know, I started it, but I sometimes think things in my head when I'm making a point that only work in my head. You ever get that?

I understand that the MOTIVATION behind Edward's truck issue is very grey matter, JUST LIKE the Jacob kiss that you all have deemed so black and white. Both have layers upon layers of motivations and intentions that, in my mind, make them forgivable. You all are choosing not to see or look into the not-so-black and white part of Jacob's big mistake. I think that's a little unfair, since you're insisting that we look at all the layers of Edward's decisions.

While their motivations for both were understandable, both actions themselves were wrong. And I think we can all agree on that, yes?

I don't mean to go on a Jacob crusade here, I just think we should treat them both with the same standard.

holdingoutforjacob wrote:

twilight1909 wrote:

holdingoutforjacob wrote:in my mind, the implications of kissing someone without their "permission" are way more innocent than dismantling someone's truck

The truck thing is not so black and white, right or wrong. I just went in depth with this on the Edward and Bella thread. Disabling Bella's vehicle in the context of WHY Edward did it, in Twilight and not in the real world, and considering the fact that they had previously discussed this, makes it so much different than the way you refer to it. Bella essentially forced Edward to "control" her by making him follow through with his promise to stop her.
I think the fact that Jacob kissed Bella against her will, not just without permission, is a black and white issue. Especially since she was in a committed relationship with Edward.

I would much rather be with an overprotective man than one who tries to force himself on me when my heart is already taken...

Really? So someone trying desperately to save your life is out of the question then?

I don't mean to turn this into a Jacob vs. Edward comparison fight AT ALL. They both have a lot in common, and really, the most important things, they have in common - i.e. being a good person, lovingness, caring, compassion, responsibility. But the things that make them different, for some reason, are things that are apparently very polarizing. IMO, it's really silly to compare them as to which is better. I know, I know, I started it, but I sometimes think things in my head when I'm making a point that only work in my head. You ever get that?

I understand that the MOTIVATION behind Edward's truck issue is very grey matter, JUST LIKE the Jacob kiss that you all have deemed so black and white. Both have layers upon layers of motivations and intentions that, in my mind, make them forgivable. You all are choosing not to see or look into the not-so-black and white part of Jacob's big mistake. I think that's a little unfair, since you're insisting that we look at all the layers of Edward's decisions.

While their motivations for both were understandable, both actions themselves were wrong. And I think we can all agree on that, yes?

I don't mean to go on a Jacob crusade here, I just think we should treat them both with the same standard.

HoldingOutForJacob~ As you opened the door, I will walk through. Whenever I look at a character, I always evaluate the whole, not just the pieces. So, to my mind, I am looking at both Edward and Jacob with the same standard. Just because I find that one meets that standard slightly more so than the other, doesn't mean the standard itself is not equal.

First, and I will state this as unequivocally and as clearly as I can. Kissing another person forcefully and against their will is wrong, period. There will not ever, ever be an argument that makes that okay. In 32 states in this country, it actually qualifies as some sort of assault (degrees and classifications vary state by state). And, in the case of the first kiss, his only motivation there was self-satisfaction. That kiss had absolutely nothing to do with saving Bella's life. Jacob's only motivation there was to get what he wanted. He wanted Bella to kiss him, so he forced it on her. He wanted Bella to think about him, to think about his kiss, so again he forced himself on her. The fact that he got turned on when she was fighting him only proves my point. That kiss was 100% about Jacob and Jacob getting what he wanted. There aren't layers of motivation or grey areas of right or wrong. It was immature, brutish and downright damn wrong. And, the fact that he gloated about it to Bella, to Edward and to Charlie just proves exactly how immature Jacob is about the whole episode.

We've already discussed the second kiss, the motivations behind that and the fact that many of us here (and I am by no means speaking for everyone) while we still think it was despicable, understand why Jacob coerced Bella into kissing him. That kiss is a whole other kettle of fish. But, the first kiss was as different as fire and ice from that one.

There is so much more I would love to say about this. But, I have responded to the most imperative part of your post. This honestly is so much more than an Edward or Jacob issue. And, I wish you could see that.

Bravo, Jazz Girl. There is no need for me to respond now.
I will simply say that, in my eyes, Jacob's "kiss mistake" was FAR more selfish and wrong than Edward's "truck mistake."

I second that Jazz Girl, you get to the meat of the matter. My hat off to you girl.

As you've opened the door, I will walk through.

First off, I am tired of your condescension to me. "I just wish you could see that" who are you kidding??

Now, to the matter at hand. Dismantling someone's truck, kidnapping them, and just generally thinking that you have that amount of control over anyone else's actions is WRONG.

Jacob kissed Bella. He didn't ask permission, and she didn't want him to. Guess what?? It happens. all. the. time. People make silly mistakes. In kissing her he showed what? That he wanted to kiss her? That he was in love with her? Gosh, you're right. I am just so wrong here.

It's not like he raped her guys. He kissed her. I'd rather have someone kiss me than take away basic rights from me and think that's perfectly okay.

So, even though you know why Jacob did the second kiss, you still think it's despicable? Fine.

You know, for all your talk to me about how to talk to people, you sure are good at acting mighty superior aren't you??

What is the bigger issue I'm missing here?? I think you all want to blow it into something it's not. Guess what?? If this were real life, and someone kissed me even though I didn't want them to, people would say, yeah, he's a jerk. But if I said someone dismantled my car and had their sister hold me hostage when they were out of town so I couldn't see my best friend - they'd tell me to run. Fast.

holdingoutforjacob wrote:What is the bigger issue I'm missing here?? I think you all want to blow it into something it's not. Guess what?? If this were real life, and someone kissed me even though I didn't want them to, people would say, yeah, he's a jerk. But if I said someone dismantled my car and had their sister hold me hostage when they were out of town so I couldn't see my best friend - they'd tell me to run. Fast.

You disregard the most important factors by using this as a real life example.
So just make sure there is a sadistic vampire who is hunting you and wants to torture you to death, and make sure that there is a pack of unpredictable werewolves that you're running to. Oh, and remember that this best friend is a sworn enemy of your boyfriend's kind and your bf had already promised to stop you in order to protect you. Then you sneak off without him knowing, but his sister sees the future and yours suddenly went blank, so he quickly decides to disable your vehicle so that you can't leave and he can make sure you're safe.
Now, would they still tell you to run?

I think that's much better than my best guy friend kissing me unwillingly when I'm more than happy with the love of my life. And I don't think that happens "all the time." Do you know a lot of people in committed relationships that are assaulted by a close friend? I sure don't.

twilight1909 wrote: You disregard the most important factors by using this as a real life example.
So just make sure there is a sadistic vampire who wants to torture you to death, and make sure that there is a pack of unpredictable werewolves that you're running to. Oh, and remember that this best friend is a sworn enemy of your boyfriend's kind and your bf had already promised to stop you in order to protect you. Then you decide to sneak off without him knowing, but his sister sees the future and yours suddenly went blank, so he quickly decides to disable your vehicle so that you can't leave and he can make sure you're safe.
Now, would they still tell you to run away?
I would still choose him over a guy who kisses me unwillingly when I'm more than happy with the love of my life.

ahhh, where would this forum be without you? You've been back for a couple weeks now, and your posts couldn't get any better!! By the way, you seem very funny.

holdingoutforjacob, I hate to say it, but- chill. Seriously. No one's attacking you here, and I get the feeling you feel like you're alone in an angry mob of Edward worshippers ready to beat you silly. And that's not the case.

For starters, I'd like to see concrete examples of why you think Jazz Girl is being "condescending" and "acting mighty superior." Because at the moment, I don't see any of that.

Jacob kissed Bella. He didn't ask permission, and she didn't want him to. Guess what?? It happens. all. the. time. People make silly mistakes. In kissing her he showed what? That he wanted to kiss her? That he was in love with her? Gosh, you're right. I am just so wrong here.

I think you're forgetting the part that she's completely in love with another man, and decided to force the kiss on her anyway. She already knew he was in love with her, but he decided to take it to the next level without her consent. I think what he was doing was to get her to fall in love with him.

I'd rather have someone kiss me than take away basic rights from me and think that's perfectly okay.

Last I checked, the right to your own personal "bubble" or "private space" was a basic right. And Edward never thought what he did was "perfectly okay"- he even told Bella to close her bedroom window in case she was upset enough not to want to see him. I agree that he was being overprotective, but this was a fantastic scenario, which calls for equally fantastic methods.

So, even though you know why Jacob did the second kiss, you still think it's despicable? Fine.

That is an opinion, and you yourself have mentioned before that opinions cannot be debated as to being right or wrong. Yet here you sound like that particular opinion is wrong. Bit of a double-standard, here.

And I think twilight1909 said it best: You can't compare these things to real life. Part of the characters' motivations stems from their specific worlds; you cannot just remove the fantasy and expect the result to make sense.