Edward and Bella 2

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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby diane771 » Wed May 27, 2009 2:27 pm

amethyst wrote:
Jadey wrote:I don't think that Edward really made any sins. He killed people because of what he is.. and I don't blame him for killing people out of frustration and anger. He lied because he had to. He probably stole things cause he had to. He isn't human.. so it's impossible for him to try and go by the commandments. And I don't believe those rules apply to him... or should apply to him. I admire that he wants to stick to them, but he shouldn't blame himself for breaking them because it's not entirely his fault.
He knows he's done wrong, and he can ask for forgiveness if he really means it.
His heart is in the right place.. :lol:

My thoughts exactly Jadey.

As a human, I find our species to be nothing that Edward or any other vampire should care about. So here is my perspective… in reality, humans are at the very pinnacle of the food chain so we literally get to pick and choose from the many prey available that best satisfy us (chicken, sheep, cow etc). Now, in the Twilight world, the vampires are the ones who are at the very pinnacle of the food chain, and their prey that best satisfies them are us: humans. So I find it only natural that they would go along with how God (or nature for those who don’t believe in God) designed them to be.

I don’t feel that Edward needs to atone for killing humans. To me it’s simple, there’s nothing wrong or sinful about your natural food source (Yes, I am quoting Aro. I do agree with him), so there’s nothing to atone for. I don’t regard the Cullens or vampires with the same levity that I regard humans. While it is admirable that all the Cullens worked hard to cling to their human perception and are able to condemn their actions or doings as wrong or right . . . I really do disagree with them. So I definitely don’t see it as a “sin” or “wrong doing” when they kill humans. But for arguments sake, if I do think of Edward the way I think of a human, then his sins (excluding killing) are small ones like Jazz Girl had pointed out. Lying, stealing and so forth. But I still am not able to take them as serious as I wouldn’t have if it were a human.

And this is coming from a religious person, if anyone is curious.


Ok I can see and agree to what you are saying but have you heard of vigilante, I think if someone did something to someone I love I could be a vigilantist but even though it would be right to me and everyone else it isn't right in our society.

Now on to Edward, do you think that because he was turned into a vampire that he lost all of his morals ? Even if you do not see Edward as a human, he was one and functions outwardly as a human, with the only diference being is, appetite, super human strenght and some other things. Edward knew right from wrong, so I say that when a person like Edward who has that conscience, does wrong, he does feel the need for atonement and accountablility. This also applies to Carlise and I think this is his whole philosophy of his, that the Cullens live by. That vampirism is like a disease and not another species. When a human dies he is buried and is dead. When a human is bit by a vampire, he isn't buried but his body and mind is still there with added aspects like being on massive doses of stryoids and change of appetite. Under this philosophy then sins and accountablity, and atonement would apply to them.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby vampirenerd » Wed May 27, 2009 3:14 pm

Well, it's like with Jasper. He felt bad about killing humans and that's why he tried to stop. I understand that he could feel his prey's emotions but even with the other vamps I think somewhere in the back of their mind they had to feel a little bad about killing a human. You're born with a conscience and I don't think that just dissapears with becoming a vampire.

Rings, i also completely agree with the seperation of church and state which is why I said I didn't want to bring God or whatever higher power into that point lol. In my personal opinion, lying to protect yourself or those you love isn't wrong. But then again, lying is such a "minor sin" that you're right there are much worse things a person could do.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby diane771 » Wed May 27, 2009 3:32 pm

vampirenerd wrote:Well, it's like with Jasper. He felt bad about killing humans and that's why he tried to stop. I understand that he could feel his prey's emotions but even with the other vamps I think somewhere in the back of their mind they had to feel a little bad about killing a human. You're born with a conscience and I don't think that just dissapears with becoming a vampire.

Rings, i also completely agree with the seperation of church and state which is why I said I didn't want to bring God or whatever higher power into that point lol. In my personal opinion, lying to protect yourself or those you love isn't wrong. But then again, lying is such a "minor sin" that you're right there are much worse things a person could do.


To me raised catholic hasn't been one in over 30yrs I don't think of lieing as a sin, but as something if it doesn't hurt anyone or like you say protecting yourselft and so on. But accountablity and atonement and concept of right and wrong I hope isn't just a religous thing, I hope that you do it for yourself where you believe are not. I am so glad to hear that you think that a vampire has a conscience because some people think what I said below is crazy but ,, I just dont' think this entity enters their body and everything else is gone. But right and wrong isn;t a religon, but when Edwar4 said to Bella about his virtue and the only thing he hadn't broken, that I do believe that he believed in God. And that he felt this way because of Carlisle and of Carlisle's up bringing. but its just an idea about the religon part.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby vampirenerd » Wed May 27, 2009 3:41 pm

Personally, I think in the back of his mind and in his soul he does believe in a God or an afterlife of some kind. I think he's scared to admit it even to himself though just in case he's wrong he doesn't want to get his hopes up. He has a very self depricating personality, so I think that if anyone other than Carlisle had changed him that he could have completely believed the concept of a vampire having no soul. It seems to me that some little part of him must have believed Carlisle or he wouldn't have come back after he left during his rebellious stage.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Dovrebanen » Wed May 27, 2009 3:54 pm

In my opinion Edward does believe in an afterlife. But I don't think he believes that there will be one for him. I don't know it he thinks that way just because he is a vampire, or if it's because he has killed people. I'm inclined to go with the first option, since he didn't want to risk Bella's soul and she hadn't killed anyone, nor would he ever let her.

Edward does have a very strong conscience. And he truly believes in Carlisle's choice of livestyle. His conscience is what b made him go back to Carlisle after his rebellious years. He couldn't stand who he had become. I think he always wants to try to be the best he can in live. So even if he is a vampire, he wants to avoid being a killing monster. Edward can read people's minds. He could read the minds of the people he killed, so he knew exactly the kind of terror he was inflicting upon them. And this made him loathe himself, I think, even if he only took the bad guys.

I agree with whoever it was that said that the Cullens aren't to be considered sinners even though they killed people. It is in their nature. They are predators. So when they do resist, it is admireable. They shouldn't be judged the way we would judge people who kill people. It is who they are basically. And the Cullens have chosen to rise above that and resist their natural urges. When I heard that Edward had killed lots of people, I just accepted that. It was who he was. And he had spent the rest of his existence living with what he did and loathing himself,even if it was in his nature to kill, and tried to be the best person he could be.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby diane771 » Wed May 27, 2009 4:21 pm

Dovrebanen wrote:In my opinion Edward does believe in an afterlife. But I don't think he believes that there will be one for him. I don't know it he thinks that way just because he is a vampire, or if it's because he has killed people. I'm inclined to go with the first option, since he didn't want to risk Bella's soul and she hadn't killed anyone, nor would he ever let her.

Edward does have a very strong conscience. And he truly believes in Carlisle's choice of livestyle. His conscience is what b made him go back to Carlisle after his rebellious years. He couldn't stand who he had become. I think he always wants to try to be the best he can in live. So even if he is a vampire, he wants to avoid being a killing monster. Edward can read people's minds. He could read the minds of the people he killed, so he knew exactly the kind of terror he was inflicting upon them. And this made him loathe himself, I think, even if he only took the bad guys.

I agree with whoever it was that said that the Cullens aren't to be considered sinners even though they killed people. It is in their nature. They are predators. So when they do resist, it is admireable. They shouldn't be judged the way we would judge people who kill people. It is who they are basically. And the Cullens have chosen to rise above that and resist their natural urges. When I heard that Edward had killed lots of people, I just accepted that. It was who he was. And he had spent the rest of his existence living with what he did and loathing himself,even if it was in his nature to kill, and tried to be the best person he could be.

So do you think that its just Edward and the Cullens or do all vampires have consciences but choose not to use it. This could apply to humans also and I see and read about all the horrible things that people do to each other. So do you think that as a vampire we should have a different standard or none. and what does that say about our human monsters? Just some Idea's of mine
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 » Wed May 27, 2009 4:40 pm

Edward has a conscience. Of course he does. I believe that he believes there is an afterlife. Just not for people like him. What I mean by that is people who have killed, lied, stolen, corrupted(or what he believes he has corrupted), coveted I could go on for ages on the bad things people do. He doesn't think he's worthy enough to deserve an afterlife. May it be heaven or hell. He doesn't want Bella going with him. He wants better for her. That's the thing I love about Edward so much. He wants the best for the people he loves. That's why he had to leave. He felt he wasn't good enough for Bella, that he didn't deserve her. He only wanted what was best for her. Back to the killing human topic, I'm sure every vampire has a little voice in their head that's saying, Don't do this! It's not morally right! Even for vampires like James and Victoria. But vampires have so much space and ablility in their minds don't they? So they can shut that voice up quickly, with other portions of their minds/thoughts whatever you call it, but still have that tiny little piece of conscience. That's just a theory. But then again, there are always truly bad people. Who only do bad things and take pleasure out of their unjustified activities. But maybe in this case, Edward has a huge, loud voice ringing in his head, unlike James and Victoria. Or maybe, this was "intensified" into his vampiric life. Based on Carlisle's theory, maybe Edward always had big morals and a big conscience. Maybe it was brought into his vampiric life, but even stronger.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby diane771 » Wed May 27, 2009 5:10 pm

I believe that Edward does, and that even though you are a vampire, you chose how to live your life, but when someone is first turn, its like a baby. You nurse the baby with milk and then on to baby food until they grow to say what they like. A newborn has been fed on human blood (most of them) and do not go to the next step to solid food, so the only thing that they know to eat is human blood. Thats my theory in part.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Dovrebanen » Sat May 30, 2009 3:57 pm

diane771 wrote:So do you think that its just Edward and the Cullens or do all vampires have consciences but choose not to use it. This could apply to humans also and I see and read about all the horrible things that people do to each other. So do you think that as a vampire we should have a different standard or none. and what does that say about our human monsters? Just some Idea's of mine

I agree with MEC. I think that all the vampires have a conscience, somewhere deep inside them. But for most of them their desires are stronger than that little voice in their head telling them that what they are doing is wrong. The minds of the nomads are controlled more by their instincts than by rational thought. They are more animal-like. But Jasper is a striking example of the vampires having a conscience. He spent so many years doing horrific things. He fed when he wanted to, and he killed thousands of people and vampires. But one day, he had enough. He could feel all the emotions around him, and some part of his mind told him that what he was doing was very wrong. So he couldn't take it anymore and left. Carlisle is also a great example. He was made into a vampire, but instead of giving into the desires that were natural for him, he chose to try to kill himself. ANd when he couldn't do that, he turned veggie. So I think that the vampires bring with them a lot of their personality traits from when they were human. I also agree with you, Diane, in that the way they are "raised" has a lot to do with how they turn out. Edward was taken care of by Carlisle, and so he made Carlisle's morals a part of his own life, and developed the self-control that he has. Bella has chosen to become a vampire and has spent a great deal of time with them. She was used to their life style even before she became a vampire, so naturally she embraced it right away.

I do believe that we have to judge vampires by a different standard then human bad guys. The humans who kill are not designed to kill, like vampires are. They are not natural predators. They kill for a number of reasons, while most vampires kill because they have to.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Jazz Girl » Sun May 31, 2009 12:07 am

Very interesting, Dovrebanen. I agree with you in principle about looking at the behavior of vampires in a different light. But, the hang up that I have there is that, clearly, vampires can resist the urge to feed on humans. Edward spends every minute of his existance within inches (and sometimes closer) to what amounts to the most mouth-watering scent possible for him. And, yet, he is able to resist completely and continuously. Bella, in the moments she should be at her wildest and most ravenous, is able to turn away with little problem. Even Jazz, as Dovrebanen mentioned, despite more than a century of feeding at will and even receiving human blood as a reward for a job well done, is able to resist. Yes, he is tempted. But, he does it. So, it is clearly possible for vampires to live without killing. Or, in the very least, there are other ways that they can obtain human blood. For example, when Carlisle was preparing for Bella's birth and change, he obtained donated blood.

So, I agree that, when it comes to those wrongs they commit in the name of keeping the secret, being able to live their lives undiscovered and safe, that's one thing. But, I think the pass stops at killing. Particularly when we see vampires like James and Laurent, who have moved beyond killing out of necessity and just do it for the sport now. They have the excuse of doing it to survive, but now do it more for fun.

I think in the end, that is why I find the whole story of Edward & Bella so absolutely compelling. It goes back to Edward denying his very nature, everything he is, to be with Bella.
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