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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby diane771 » Sun May 31, 2009 1:26 am

Jazz Girl wrote:Very interesting, Dovrebanen. I agree with you in principle about looking at the behavior of vampires in a different light. But, the hang up that I have there is that, clearly, vampires can resist the urge to feed on humans. Edward spends every minute of his existance within inches (and sometimes closer) to what amounts to the most mouth-watering scent possible for him. And, yet, he is able to resist completely and continuously. Bella, in the moments she should be at her wildest and most ravenous, is able to turn away with little problem. Even Jazz, as Dovrebanen mentioned, despite more than a century of feeding at will and even receiving human blood as a reward for a job well done, is able to resist. Yes, he is tempted. But, he does it. So, it is clearly possible for vampires to live without killing. Or, in the very least, there are other ways that they can obtain human blood. For example, when Carlisle was preparing for Bella's birth and change, he obtained donated blood.

So, I agree that, when it comes to those wrongs they commit in the name of keeping the secret, being able to live their lives undiscovered and safe, that's one thing. But, I think the pass stops at killing. Particularly when we see vampires like James and Laurent, who have moved beyond killing out of necessity and just do it for the sport now. They have the excuse of doing it to survive, but now do it more for fun.

I think in the end, that is why I find the whole story of Edward & Bella so absolutely compelling. It goes back to Edward denying his very nature, everything he is, to be with Bella.


Well if we go with a few theories I had like someone giving up smoking after years of being addicted to it. To me a non smoker I don't know why people smoke or the addiction. When I was in high school, I tried cigs and never got anything from them. So didn't get hooked on cigs. and I try to understand smokers with all the medical reasons out . A big thing that I found was when I was working in a smoke filled room I didn't notice it as much as in the morning and smelling my cloths just reeking in smoke. I think maybe Edward smelled Bella, after he gives up human blood for so long and it just hit him like my cloths did in the morning. Like Wow to Edwarsd.
The addiction is applied to other vamps, or it could be like when you have a baby, and you feed them milk, and then you broaden their feeding habits. only the vampire doesn't broads their eating habits they are happy to just to eat what they started with which is human blood. Any society will have bad, evil or horrible people in the standards based on our society. Then there might be a weeker human who is turned into a vamp so he can not be strong enough to over come the urges and just lives his life as best that he has to stay subsist.
Which most likely Alice might have done when she first woke up and all of Carlisle's friends that came to be witnesses for Renesmee, they were not like the Cullens and only ones were the Denali's .
So I think when Bella walk into Edward life it was like a chain smoker, a rare bottle wine to a connoisseur, a flawless diamond for a jeweler. And even with the years and years the urge to go back is there. But do we brand all vampires with a having a conscientious choice of not drinking human blood any higher, than a vampire who does drink human blood, yet doesn't realize there can be choices. Think about how hard it was on Edward, and the control he had to make so that natural instinct did not take control of him. Think about how hard it was to fall in love with someone knowing that it was wrong and nothing could stop it.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Asheleyo » Sun May 31, 2009 10:04 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:I don't think anyone could possibly maintain that Edward is an essentially selfish creature. I don't always like Edward, in fact, I don't find him very interesting or likable at all, but I do know that at his core, he is an incredibly selfless person.



I don't think it's too far of a stretch to call Edward selfish in some minor way. I think it plays into the complications of his character. Yes, he is selfless in that he is thinking of Bella's safety and future. But he has a very fatal flaw in his idealism. He thinks only from his perspective, which is a selfish thing to do. Considering how surprised he was that Bella could believe his lie after all the times that he said he loved her, he never thought to turn that around and think of all the times she told him exactly the same thing. And not just that, but that she would love him forever and that he is her life now. If he had stopped to think from her perspective, knowing just how different she is from every other human he's known--breaking all the rules of human nature he's found--then he should have seen how she would not have continued on with life as normal, ever.

If Edward had stopped to think truly from Bella's perspective, then he would have known just how much his attempt to save her was in vain. But his ability has created this near feeling of omniscience.
Precisely because death awaits us in the end, we must live fully.

Stars did fly toward each other, irresistibly, as if they were falling in love. And millions of years later, lovers on Earth drew together and fell in love, watching the stars fall.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 » Sun May 31, 2009 3:49 pm

Ashleyo,
You bring up a good point. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, his selfless actions are selfish and self-less. As are Bella's actions. That's what happens when you love a person as much as they love each other, everything you do is for them, so you can have them which is in itself a mindboggling self-less/selfish thing. You're right if he saw things from her perspective it would be different it's just that he loves her too much to have any exceptions for her safety/anything etc. But at times he does try to see things from other people's perspective. I mean, he has the ability to. :lol:
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Asheleyo » Sun May 31, 2009 5:29 pm

Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 wrote: But at times he does try to see things from other people's perspective. I mean, he has the ability to. :lol:


That's true. I feel that's partly why he is finally accepting of her relationship with Jacob and allows her to visit despite his extreme feelings against it. And that's also him learning from his mistakes of not listening to her properly. I agree that love is a delicate balance between selfish desires and selflessness in favor of your beloved. And I guess it is hard to blame either of them for not being able to make that balance work too well at the beginning since it is their first experience with that kind of love to any degree, let alone to the extreme that they feel it.
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Stars did fly toward each other, irresistibly, as if they were falling in love. And millions of years later, lovers on Earth drew together and fell in love, watching the stars fall.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby diane771 » Sun May 31, 2009 6:54 pm

I don't think it's too far of a stretch to call Edward selfish in some minor way. I think it plays into the complications of his character. Yes, he is selfless in that he is thinking of Bella's safety and future. But he has a very fatal flaw in his idealism. He thinks only from his perspective, which is a selfish thing to do. Considering how surprised he was that Bella could believe his lie after all the times that he said he loved her, he never thought to turn that around and think of all the times she told him exactly the same thing. And not just that, but that she would love him forever and that he is her life now. If he had stopped to think from her perspective, knowing just how different she is from every other human he's known--breaking all the rules of human nature he's found--then he should have seen how she would not have continued on with life as normal, ever.

If Edward had stopped to think truly from Bella's perspective, then he would have known just how much his attempt to save her was in vain. But his ability has created this near feeling of omniscience.[/quote]

That statement really for some reason bothers me, because Edward was thinking from Bella's perspective and you are saying that Edward should know all. Just as in raising a child we put bounderies not because we are not seeing the child's perspective or that we are being selfish, it juat maybe we know more about something than the child or person/ So you can if Edward had stopped and went with Bella's perspective, she could have become pregnant before the marriage. Edward could not read her mind so you must give him truely believe that he weighed both sides of the issues before making a stand. All Edward had to go on was what he had heard from teen age girls telling their boyfriends the same thing that Bella was telling him. So You juat can not fault him for that. If he wasn't able to hear other peoples thoughts then I would agree with you but he based his assessment of the situation on what he felt was the best. and again his actions were selfless
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Asheleyo » Sun May 31, 2009 9:50 pm

diane771 wrote:That statement really for some reason bothers me, because Edward was thinking from Bella's perspective and you are saying that Edward should know all. Just as in raising a child we put bounderies not because we are not seeing the child's perspective or that we are being selfish, it juat maybe we know more about something than the child or person/ So you can if Edward had stopped and went with Bella's perspective, she could have become pregnant before the marriage. Edward could not read her mind so you must give him truely believe that he weighed both sides of the issues before making a stand. All Edward had to go on was what he had heard from teen age girls telling their boyfriends the same thing that Bella was telling him. So You juat can not fault him for that. If he wasn't able to hear other peoples thoughts then I would agree with you but he based his assessment of the situation on what he felt was the best. and again his actions were selfless


Sorry, I must have been somewhat unclear. I don't think that Edward should know all, that is far too much to ask of anyone, even someone who can read all but one person's mind. To try to see things from another person's perspective is, to me, what makes the best type of relationship (friendship or more). It is the attempt at an open mind that counts. Edward has personal boundaries, and that is to be respected. But leaving Bella is not equivalent to pushing his boundaries. Even Stephenie has said that Edward has a bit of a God complex. It's hard not to given his ability. But knowing that he can't hear Bella's thoughts, he has to make more of an effort to understand her. I think he weighted the sides from his perspective of what was best for Bella. But he honestly did not think that Bella could love him as much as he loved her, which colors his view of her and his decision to leave. And I can fault him for not believing Bella to be sincere. He is doing exactly what he chides Bella for doing to him.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby diane771 » Sun May 31, 2009 11:01 pm

Asheleyo wrote:
diane771 wrote:That statement really for some reason bothers me, because Edward was thinking from Bella's perspective and you are saying that Edward should know all. Just as in raising a child we put bounderies not because we are not seeing the child's perspective or that we are being selfish, it juat maybe we know more about something than the child or person/ So you can if Edward had stopped and went with Bella's perspective, she could have become pregnant before the marriage. Edward could not read her mind so you must give him truely believe that he weighed both sides of the issues before making a stand. All Edward had to go on was what he had heard from teen age girls telling their boyfriends the same thing that Bella was telling him. So You juat can not fault him for that. If he wasn't able to hear other peoples thoughts then I would agree with you but he based his assessment of the situation on what he felt was the best. and again his actions were selfless


Sorry, I must have been somewhat unclear. I don't think that Edward should know all, that is far too much to ask of anyone, even someone who can read all but one person's mind. To try to see things from another person's perspective is, to me, what makes the best type of relationship (friendship or more). It is the attempt at an open mind that counts. Edward has personal boundaries, and that is to be respected. But leaving Bella is not equivalent to pushing his boundaries. Even Stephenie has said that Edward has a bit of a God complex. It's hard not to given his ability. But knowing that he can't hear Bella's thoughts, he has to make more of an effort to understand her. I think he weighted the sides from his perspective of what was best for Bella. But he honestly did not think that Bella could love him as much as he loved her, which colors his view of her and his decision to leave. And I can fault him for not believing Bella to be sincere. He is doing exactly what he chides Bella for doing to him.


Again I see what you are saying but do not agree. Edward told Bella that he could not live in a world without Bella, How can you go from saying Edward didn''t understand her? Yes he weighed the sides from all perspectives. But most important was Bella to him. So it isn't a matter of Edward not believing Bella loving him or being sincere. His leaving had nothing to do with him thinking Bella was not serious or did not love him as much as he loved her. It was something that he would nerver do to her, and he told her that in Twilight that he would never be a cause for her pain or death. So Bella knew from the start if her life became a serious problem and everyday she could be facing danger and that danger was because of Edward that he would leave. It had nothing to do with her lack of feelings for him. He was the strong at that time to end it even though it tore him apart, and even though he knew that he would never find another love, but he could not live in a world with out her in it. That is a love so strong that you can't even imagine. So he didn't leave for anyother reason. I am confused by your statement atill about this. That he had to make an effort to understand her. The gift of putting somone else life before yours is love. Edward understood that Bella, would not let go. and he need her to be away from harm and be a normal human girl and find someone to love. Edward was totally unselfish in this, and to say that he didn't understand her is not true because of the way he broke it off with her. Bella's world fell apart, but she started to come back from the breakup, But Edward did not he was totally alone and like frozen and when he heard Bella was no longer on the earth he didn't want to be there either. It says many times that and I don't understand why you don't believe in that. And fault Edward for making the hardest decision he had to make and he made it purely out of love.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Asheleyo » Sun May 31, 2009 11:25 pm

diane771 wrote:
Asheleyo wrote:
diane771 wrote:That statement really for some reason bothers me, because Edward was thinking from Bella's perspective and you are saying that Edward should know all. Just as in raising a child we put bounderies not because we are not seeing the child's perspective or that we are being selfish, it juat maybe we know more about something than the child or person/ So you can if Edward had stopped and went with Bella's perspective, she could have become pregnant before the marriage. Edward could not read her mind so you must give him truely believe that he weighed both sides of the issues before making a stand. All Edward had to go on was what he had heard from teen age girls telling their boyfriends the same thing that Bella was telling him. So You juat can not fault him for that. If he wasn't able to hear other peoples thoughts then I would agree with you but he based his assessment of the situation on what he felt was the best. and again his actions were selfless


Sorry, I must have been somewhat unclear. I don't think that Edward should know all, that is far too much to ask of anyone, even someone who can read all but one person's mind. To try to see things from another person's perspective is, to me, what makes the best type of relationship (friendship or more). It is the attempt at an open mind that counts. Edward has personal boundaries, and that is to be respected. But leaving Bella is not equivalent to pushing his boundaries. Even Stephenie has said that Edward has a bit of a God complex. It's hard not to given his ability. But knowing that he can't hear Bella's thoughts, he has to make more of an effort to understand her. I think he weighted the sides from his perspective of what was best for Bella. But he honestly did not think that Bella could love him as much as he loved her, which colors his view of her and his decision to leave. And I can fault him for not believing Bella to be sincere. He is doing exactly what he chides Bella for doing to him.


Again I see what you are saying but do not agree. Edward told Bella that he could not live in a world without Bella, How can you go from saying Edward didn''t understand her? Yes he weighed the sides from all perspectives. But most important was Bella to him. So it isn't a matter of Edward not believing Bella loving him or being sincere. His leaving had nothing to do with him thinking Bella was not serious or did not love him as much as he loved her. It was something that he would nerver do to her, and he told her that in Twilight that he would never be a cause for her pain or death. So Bella knew from the start if her life became a serious problem and everyday she could be facing danger and that danger was because of Edward that he would leave. It had nothing to do with her lack of feelings for him. He was the strong at that time to end it even though it tore him apart, and even though he knew that he would never find another love, but he could not live in a world with out her in it. That is a love so strong that you can't even imagine. So he didn't leave for anyother reason. I am confused by your statement atill about this. That he had to make an effort to understand her. The gift of putting somone else life before yours is love. Edward understood that Bella, would not let go. and he need her to be away from harm and be a normal human girl and find someone to love. Edward was totally unselfish in this, and to say that he didn't understand her is not true because of the way he broke it off with her. Bella's world fell apart, but she started to come back from the breakup, But Edward did not he was totally alone and like frozen and when he heard Bella was no longer on the earth he didn't want to be there either. It says many times that and I don't understand why you don't believe in that. And fault Edward for making the hardest decision he had to make and he made it purely out of love.


Ok, Edward says himself that he believed Bella would be able to move on. But she wasn't able. Yes, she might have finally made the decision to be with Jacob, but she still never would have stopped loving Edward and most likely would never love Jacob as much. In that way, he was wrong. His main goal in leaving her was to make her safe and give her the chance to live a normal human life. He did not realize that such a thing was simply impossible for Bella. She would never be normal without him. He was blinded by what his immortality gave him. He thought surely that no human could feel as strongly for anyone the way he did about Bella--not even Bella's feelings for him could be as strong. But he was wrong. I honestly do not think that Edward tried to see Bella's side. And what I mean by that is that didn't try to put himself in Bella's position. He most likely thought to himself that she loved him, certainly, but he still never got past the belief that her love would heal over time while his love would continue forever. In that way, even though he was trying to do a selfless act, it is selfishness that blinded him. He retained his own grasp on what her feelings were, believing that no one could feel as much love as he did.

He thought it was selfishness that he would be giving in to if he returned to Bella, but really it would have been giving her the choice, and hence much more selfless an act. But he couldn't see it from that perspective.
Precisely because death awaits us in the end, we must live fully.

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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby diane771 » Sun May 31, 2009 11:37 pm

Where is the selfishness coming from I still can't see your point? Even if Edward was and is totally aware of Bella's feelings which he most likely was. His leaving and taking danger and letting Bella live a normal human life is no way selfish so you say that he didn't see how much Bella loved him, have you ever been in situation that you know that someone you love with every inch of yourself and you make a descision based on love where does the not knowing Bella's feelings come in? He is trying to take the danger away. So he himself is even suffering more. But what would happen if Bella was killed if Edward had stayed?
His leaving was not based on hom much Bella loved him. It was based on Bella living, so which would you do if you were Edward, you would leave. You would see if Bella could move on with a normal relationship and go to college, get married and have a family. This is what Edward was giving Bella, When he realize she might be dead well you know the rest, and he did tell Bella that he would have come back anyway to see if she had moved on and he would have seen that she hadn't and then they might have got back together. But I can't see why you think Edward put so little into Bella's love for him, because that just was not true.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Asheleyo » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:04 am

I don't think Edward believed Bella didn't love him, but I know from Midnight Sun and from SM that he did think she couldn't possibly love him as much as he loved her.

On the other stuff, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think you're getting that selfishness can come in different degrees. And I'm playing off of a much more subtle degree of it. I don't think Edward is at his core selfish at all, but there is a small amount of it that played into his actions. I do think you can be selfish without realizing it, and I think that's what happened. I don't think it was his main motivating factor at all. But I don't agree that he understood Bella completely at that point and I do think he mitigated her love for him. If he had known that pain and suffering she would go through once he left, I don't think he would have left, as is evident by his extreme guilt every time someone mentions the time that he was away and what it did to her. And whether he thought about her love for him not being as strong as a reason to leave or not, it still played into his actions. He left for her to have a normal life and be safe and free from pain. But there's nothing normal about a zombie. And there's nothing painfree about losing your true love. He wouldn't stay with her after coming back from Italy if he didn't realize how much of a mistake it was to leave in the first place. He was letting his near sense of omniscience cloud his judgment.
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Stars did fly toward each other, irresistibly, as if they were falling in love. And millions of years later, lovers on Earth drew together and fell in love, watching the stars fall.
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