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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:08 pm

Thanks so much for the friendly reminder, Una.

I never really thought about the spoiler thing, since we were just sort of discussing what the movie really brought to light for us, not in how they were portrayed but simply seeing them on screen. Is this still permissable? I don't see why it would be a problem (we all know when we see a movie certain things will jump out at us and that will be different for everyone) but I definitely may be missing something. I don't really think movie Jacob did much that book Jacob didn't. So could you clarify what you mean a bit?
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby RebeccaCullen » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:57 pm

In the "human" world, no mythical creatures and let people run their natural paths, Jake would have been Bella's better half. But given that the world involves the supernatural, Edward is the better match for Bella, IMO.

If Edward never came back for Bella after he left, I do think that Bella would have fallen in love with Jake and realized it later on. She was still healing when the things were going down with Victoria and Laurent, and even if they had been taken care of sooner, her emotional being was still healing. Would she have been happy within a few more months? Yes, but not completely ready to go into another relationship.

On page I have a harder time seeing Bella fall for Jake, but on screen it's another story. Don't know why, just do.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby una » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:00 pm

I don't mind clarifying at all! If, and I'm not saying this is true for Jacob as it may be for other characters, however, if Jacob had done something or there was a scene that wasn't in the book or something was different, highlighting that difference in a discussion may be spoilerish for someone else. There is a famous scene in New Moon that was altered a bit between Jacob and Bella and the dialogue was a bit different as well as the actions. Different people have different thresholds for what they view as a spoiler, knowing the difference could be a spoiler for them and for others not. It's why I just want us to be careful which is why I asked if you guys wanted to wait until we can discuss the movie versus the book when it comes to how Jacob may or may not be presented differently. I was not giving my opinion or theory yet...however, even just discussing the movie character/depiction of Jacob is fine (depending on our views of allowing or waiting for spoilers...because in giving examples from the movie, we could be spoiling someone) unless we are critiquing the actor which is more of a casting discussion (how did Taylor portray, what he got right or wrong) and is not allowed here. However, we can compare the movie character to the book characterization. I hope I am making the distinction clear, this is not the place to critique, grade or rate Taylor's portrayal but rather how the screen play portrays Jacob or how movie Jacob differs from book Jacob. How you saw the characters is fine as long as we are not becoming a casting discussion. Does that make more sense?
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Jazz Girl » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:56 pm

RebeccaCullen wrote:In the "human" world, no mythical creatures and let people run their natural paths, Jake would have been Bella's better half. But given that the world involves the supernatural, Edward is the better match for Bella, IMO.

If Edward never came back for Bella after he left, I do think that Bella would have fallen in love with Jake and realized it later on. She was still healing when the things were going down with Victoria and Laurent, and even if they had been taken care of sooner, her emotional being was still healing. Would she have been happy within a few more months? Yes, but not completely ready to go into another relationship.

On page I have a harder time seeing Bella fall for Jake, but on screen it's another story. Don't know why, just do.


I don't know RebeccaCullen. While I completely agree with you that Jake was Bella's natural path in life, I am not so sure that, even had Edward not returned, she would have been able to be happy with Jacob. Yes, Bella was healing, but she was still traumatized and emotionally damaged. Yes, she might have tried to pull it off, for Jake and for Charlie. But, a part of her would always be closed off to him, IMO. Particularly because of the way in which Edward left, I think a part of her would always belong to him. They were just too deep into each other, a part of each other. It's like Bella says during her epiphany. They were so irreversibly changed by each other that even her acceptance of less with Jake, a part of Edward would always be there, would always hold her. And, in that, she would never be truly happy or free with Jake.

Now, I think Jake would have accepted her any way he could have her. But, I wonder how long before he started to resent that. I don't think it would have been fair to him at all.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:22 pm

Thanks so much Una!! I appreciate it. I totally agree about discussing specific scenes of the movie that aren't in the book or even how they're portrayed, I was definitely trying to just say what scene without really describing it. I'm so sorry to anyone that read something they didn't want to know yet!

I think I fall somewhere between the two of you, Jazz Girl and RebeccaCullen.

The way I feel is that to Bella, Edward leaving was a little bit like his death, had it been a regular human relationship. When a person's spouse dies, they are so depressed and so sad, sometimes even to Bella's degree. And lots of people do move on, get remarried, and are truly happy with another person. But they never stop loving their first husband, never forget them, never stop missing them. There's a part of them that will always belong to that person no matter what, and there's a side of them that died with their first husband. So I think Bella could be truly happy with Jacob, but she'll always have that memory of what was her relationship with Edward.

I think we also have to remember that throughout New Moon, she was making no effort towards moving on from Edward, as a way of resisting what was happening. I don't think she had accepted his departure yet, to be totally honest. I think if she made a conscious effort to move on, she could have been very happy.

But, Jazz Girl, you're definitely right in that it would never be what it was with Edward.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby amethyst » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:22 pm

Holdingoutforjacob that was a very well written post . . . Something you stated, I would like to comment on. You stated that Edward’s departure was much like Edward’s death to Bella. I can’t help but disagree . . . If Edward truly died, Bella losing herself wouldn’t quite capture the consequence of such an event!

The reason she continued on living because she knew, somewhere in some corner of the world Edward still existed. That knowledge, along with him having been existing in Forks was the only reason Bella stayed behind. “A world which can be explained, even through bad reasoning, is a familiar one . . ." a world where Edward exists . . . “. . . On the other hand, in a world suddenly devoid of illusion and light, man feels like a stranger” A world where Edward ceases to exist is a world without light and life, to Bella. Quote from The Myth of Sisyphus--Albert Camus. The way she was tied to Edward is inescapable.

I do believe that Bella accepted what a tragedy life can be. She accepted that Edward didn’t love her and never could. She accepted her future without him and without the eternity she wished she could have with him. She accepted his decision. Yet, she could not dare imagine not loving him. Because to forget would mean to her that that he never existed. I don’t believe for a second that she was resisting the choice he made for himself and her in terms of their future together, but she was resisting forgetting that he ever existed. Bella continually coins terms such as “mirage”, “unreal” and “dream” when she refers to Edward in Twilight and in the beginning of New Moon. Because in order for her to continue to live, she needed to know that he ever existed and is still existing. And she needed to know that for the entirety of her life, that I believe is what would have caused her to be less than happy and to be less giving of herself towards Jacob.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:55 pm

I have to respectfully disagree.

First, please note that I said like Edward had died if it were a normal human relationship - which we have established it was not.

Whether or not Bella accepted the tragedy life can be is neither here nor there, and I never said that Edward was escapable for Bella. In fact, I believe I said several times that Bella would never forget Edward and would always know Edward was who she was meant for, so we agree there.

What I disagree with is that Bella accepted her circumstances fully. Bella hadn't yet contemplated the rest of her life. She had not yet even begun to contemplate moving on, which is an indication that she has yet to accept what has happened to her enough that she understands that she needs to move on. As soon as we begin to sort of see this a little bit - in the car with Jacob when she's about to "settle" the Cullens show up again. So we really have no idea what it would have been like had she attempted at all to move on.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby amethyst » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:19 pm

Just to state, I was not disagreeing with you on the second point. Just agreeing with you, but in my own words.

I don't have enough time to reply to the last point, which I will tomorrow. But for now, thought it better if I cleared that misunderstanding.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby amethyst » Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:27 pm

You’re right, "Whether or not Bella accepted the tragedy life can be is neither here nor there" has no relevance to the discussion. However, that wasn’t quite the context I meant to sketch within the paragraph. Had Bella not accepted the tragedy that is her life? Had she not accepted that an eternity with Edward and life as a vampire with her most beloved family became an impossibility since being thrust into the situation that Edward had placed her in? I think it is safe to say so. However, if you were regarding Bella moving on as in not loving Edward anymore. Then I do agree that she hasn’t done that, nor has she ever intended nor will she ever attempt such a blasphemy. She never considered settling with Jacob in the alleged hopes of moving on or attempting to. She would have eventually given herself to Jacob, but only because she felt compelled to in fear of Jacob leaving her. She was considering that, for him.

While we can’t know for certain how exactly the events would have carried out had she not jumped of off the cliff. I think we can make a pretty accurate assumption and that is that Bella will never one day wake up where everything is better like other humans do when they lose a loved one and be able to look a head into the life they/she could have and goals and hopes them/she can achieve. This is due to the fact that a part of her died. When he left it was precisely like she died as much was stated by her. Jacob could only resurrect only a small fraction of her. Enough that she could smile and be somewhat normal again. But she will always go to bed not knowing what tomorrow will hold. At the very least, that’s the assumption that I would make and would agree with.
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Re: Jacob Black #2

Postby Amanda Beth » Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:04 pm

Although Bella admitted she loved Jacob, "too much but not nearly enough" he had a much bigger impact on her than some give credit for. She couldn't and wouldn't, no matter what Edward did to keep her away from him, kick him out of her life. She said she knew Edward was the one that she couldn't live without... but she KNOWS that because she HAD to live without him. Yes, Jacob left after he got the wedding invite and she didn't fall apart like she did for Edward, but she also knew he did it because SHE hurt him, not because he broke up and didn't want her anymore. I believe a part of her couldn't live without Jake either, and she just never got a chance to deal with that. That is why she could never let go of him. That is why she couldn't tell him off so he'd get over her and move on and stop pining over her.

"I’d thought Jake had been healing the hole in me—or at least plugging it up, keeping it from hurting me so much. I’d been wrong. He’d just been carving out his own hole, so that I was now riddled through like Swiss cheese. I wondered why I didn’t crumble into pieces."

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