Edward Cullen #6

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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby diane771 » Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:12 pm

I see your point Diane771 in the difference between redemption and repentance. However, I feel that Edward did repent and by the end of BD, I wonder if he felt the redeemed? I believe he was redeemed when he met Bella. What if Bella was the reward for returning to the path of the righteous? True, a test in a way to see if he was truly worthy, which he past and gained his soul mate. I wonder, now that his mate is a vampire and how Bella is as a vampire, if his attitude about being a monster has changed. Does Edward think he has been redeemed by the end?

Well this is my point that repent is being sorry for what you did, and by Edward thinking himself as a monster who kills people don't you think that he is repenting wish one had not done, resolve not to continue Edward was repenting everyday he returned to Carlisle. The redemption does come with finding true love and focusing on the good in yourself and not the bad.
Yes that is a great Idea UNA Edwards redeemed by the end. I do think she brought to his life the hope and faith in himself again and so yes I do feel he was redeemed. He is living a clean life and has a wife and child and not focusing on that "monter" he thinks he is. I don't believe at all that he thinks Bella is a monster, so he is seeing a vampire through a different perspective. It just what I think.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:12 pm

I want to comment on Dovrebannen's point about separating motives from actions from a page ago, because I think it's very interesting.

I don't think that it's mutually inclusive or exclusive. It's just as dangerous to look at everything in a very narrow-minded, black and white view. To not expand your thinking and push yourself to consider other ways is silly and limiting, and does not provide a true picture of the world. People who refuse to look at the full picture, in this way, tend to turn out to be the most dangerous people in our societies.

But I DO think that for the purpose of simply analyzing part of the issue, you can separate the issue from the motive. You can look at something a person does and say, okay, this ACTION is wrong, no matter what. Or this action is right. You cannot, however, look at only one part of the equation when judging a person/character.

Edward fans will probably rip me to shreds for what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway. I know that Edward killed only those who planned to murder or rape or commit a serious crime. However, in doing so before they committed that actual act, he takes away their option to decide not to. And they can change their minds. I'm assuming most people here have read To Kill a Mockingbird, but if you haven't, and you plan to, you might not want to read any further.

Remember when the gang shows up at the jail to kill Tom?? And Atticus is there?? And Scout starts talking to Mr. Cunningham about his son and how he's a good boy, and she's just so honest and genuine that it snaps him back into himself? Granted, he's a good, reasonable, honest man the majority of the time, and Scout wasn't changing his personality, just his mindset at the time. But anyway, the point is, did Edward only kill the ones who were too far gone for a "Scout" to do any good?
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby diane771 » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:28 pm

The discussion is really redemtion and repention. We all know Edward killed. but was he repentive, yes for decades thinking he was nothing more than a monster. Changed that vampire urge that runs in all vampires to drink human blood and live off of animals like humans do. He changed his life around bettering himself as a person

Did he redeem himself? Yes, he paid his dues by becoming the person that he was after repenting. Bella brought that redemption to the surface, when she showed him the good in him, that for years and years he had buried inside and only dwelled on his bad actions, which were a small part of his life and started to look at his life more positively.

You can't judge Edward by human standards when he killed those people and forgetting he was a vampire,and vampires live off of human blood. They have no regrets for who they kill because its a meal. Edward is more of an evolved vampire and to get to that point he maybe needed to see the other side of it and not jusf Carlisles. Vampires can not be judge by human laws and societies laws because they are not human, but Edward rose above the vampire and became more human by going the way of Carlisle. So he was horrified with his actions and was repentive of the for a long time. I do believe that he redeemed himself in Bella and Renesmee. Thats how I view Edward.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby The Dark Knight » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:17 am

Cutting in below

holdingoutforjacob wrote:I want to comment on Dovrebannen's point about separating motives from actions from a page ago, because I think it's very interesting.

I don't think that it's mutually inclusive or exclusive. It's just as dangerous to look at everything in a very narrow-minded, black and white view. To not expand your thinking and push yourself to consider other ways is silly and limiting, and does not provide a true picture of the world. People who refuse to look at the full picture, in this way, tend to turn out to be the most dangerous people in our societies.

I guess this make me the dangerous kind of person...

But I DO think that for the purpose of simply analyzing part of the issue, you can separate the issue from the motive. You can look at something a person does and say, okay, this ACTION is wrong, no matter what. Or this action is right. You cannot, however, look at only one part of the equation when judging a person/character.

The action is judge for it's results, the person is judged for his/her motives both make up the conclusion as what is best to be done for the society.

Edward fans will probably rip me to shreds for what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway. I know that Edward killed only those who planned to murder or rape or commit a serious crime. However, in doing so before they committed that actual act, he takes away their option to decide not to. And they can change their minds. I'm assuming most people here have read To Kill a Mockingbird, but if you haven't, and you plan to, you might not want to read any further.

You speak the truth sister, Edward by his actions negates free will thus his act is doubly evil and caprisious...

Remember when the gang shows up at the jail to kill Tom?? And Atticus is there?? And Scout starts talking to Mr. Cunningham about his son and how he's a good boy, and she's just so honest and genuine that it snaps him back into himself? Granted, he's a good, reasonable, honest man the majority of the time, and Scout wasn't changing his personality, just his mindset at the time. But anyway, the point is, did Edward only kill the ones who were too far gone for a "Scout" to do any good?


Who know how many true innocents edward killed. Look at your own mind, how many nasty thoughts have crossed it before that have never seem the light of day. Edward is foulible like the rest of us...
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby The Dark Knight » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:20 am

diane771 wrote:The discussion is really redemtion and repention. We all know Edward killed. but was he repentive, yes for decades thinking he was nothing more than a monster. Changed that vampire urge that runs in all vampires to drink human blood and live off of animals like humans do. He changed his life around bettering himself as a person

Did he redeem himself? Yes, he paid his dues by becoming the person that he was after repenting. Bella brought that redemption to the surface, when she showed him the good in him, that for years and years he had buried inside and only dwelled on his bad actions, which were a small part of his life and started to look at his life more positively.

You can't judge Edward by human standards when he killed those people and forgetting he was a vampire,and vampires live off of human blood. They have no regrets for who they kill because its a meal. Edward is more of an evolved vampire and to get to that point he maybe needed to see the other side of it and not jusf Carlisles. Vampires can not be judge by human laws and societies laws because they are not human, but Edward rose above the vampire and became more human by going the way of Carlisle. So he was horrified with his actions and was repentive of the for a long time. I do believe that he redeemed himself in Bella and Renesmee. Thats how I view Edward.


How can you say he has redeemed himself when he as not made amends to those he killed? The sword cuts both ways here...or have we elevated Edward to godhood :lol: beyond the need to make the world right...
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby Dovrebanen » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:42 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:But I DO think that for the purpose of simply analyzing part of the issue, you can separate the issue from the motive. You can look at something a person does and say, okay, this ACTION is wrong, no matter what. Or this action is right. You cannot, however, look at only one part of the equation when judging a person/character.

You're right, HOFJ. You can say that an action is either right or wrong. For instance when someone kills an innocent person for no other reason than their enjoyment or whatever. But the act of killing in itself, cannot be viewed as either right or wrong, IMO, because there are multiple reasons for why people kill. That's why I say we have to look at the motives.

I do think you're right that we have to look at the entire picture when judging a person. I look at what Edward did in his past, and the reasons why. I also look at what he has done after his rebellious years. And all this makes me say that Edward was not an evil person.


holdingoutforjacob wrote:Edward fans will probably rip me to shreds for what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway. I know that Edward killed only those who planned to murder or rape or commit a serious crime. However, in doing so before they committed that actual act, he takes away their option to decide not to. And they can change their minds. I'm assuming most people here have read To Kill a Mockingbird, but if you haven't, and you plan to, you might not want to read any further.

That could be the case. But the way I pictured it, Edward was fairly close to the incident when he did the killings. Like he would hear something happening in a dark alley, or he would notice someone stalking a girl with every intent on killing her. I don't think he rushed over and killed someone just because he heard a nasty thought. I would assume that he made sure that they were actually out with bad intentions, maybe that they had killed before.
But it is of course possibly that he did in fact kill someone who would have changed their minds. Like the earlier mentioned Minority Report, where people are stopped before they commit the action. There is quite a way from planning to do something bad, to actually doing it. So that could have happened. That he made mistakes.
I do however think that most of the time, he approached situations while they were happening.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby diane771 » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:11 am

How can you say he has redeemed himself when he as not made amends to those he killed? The sword cuts both ways here...or have we elevated Edward to godhood beyond the need to make the world right...
Oh DK you are seriously scaring me here, now its amends well yes he did. I guess you have not read my post and the true meaning of them. You are going by what the human race is based on, morals, rules, societies right and wrong, but again I say why are you judging Edward under human guidelines? He is not human, he is a vampire and he has beyong redeem himself, made amends and repented. So what more do you want him to do, change into a human? You are talking like that and its impossible so judging his actions on a human scale is just not right. If you judge him and his "peers' who would be vampires, he has done more to make amends, repent and redeemed himself .
So if you want to discuss this further than you have to see Edward and judge him not by human standards but by what he is which is a vampire and vampire standards. how can you say taking 2 different species and judging them by one species law of nature and society is right when they are not that species. To compare them, you need to compare what they are in their own species and Edward was more evolved and superior as a vampire than most. But he still can not be a human. He has memories and that is why he is torn between what he has become vs what he was. Only when you can see him that way and not judge him as a human are we going to get anywhere here.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby The Dark Knight » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:00 am

diane771 wrote:How can you say he has redeemed himself when he as not made amends to those he killed? The sword cuts both ways here...or have we elevated Edward to godhood beyond the need to make the world right...
Oh DK you are seriously scaring me here, now its amends well yes he did. I guess you have not read my post and the true meaning of them. You are going by what the human race is based on, morals, rules, societies right and wrong, but again I say why are you judging Edward under human guidelines? He is not human, he is a vampire and he has beyong redeem himself, made amends and repented. So what more do you want him to do, change into a human? You are talking like that and its impossible so judging his actions on a human scale is just not right. If you judge him and his "peers' who would be vampires, he has done more to make amends, repent and redeemed himself .
So if you want to discuss this further than you have to see Edward and judge him not by human standards but by what he is which is a vampire and vampire standards. how can you say taking 2 different species and judging them by one species law of nature and society is right when they are not that species. To compare them, you need to compare what they are in their own species and Edward was more evolved and superior as a vampire than most. But he still can not be a human. He has memories and that is why he is torn between what he has become vs what he was. Only when you can see him that way and not judge him as a human are we going to get anywhere here.


How did any of the things you pointed out fix the dead? They are all well and good but they fall woefully short of redemption...
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby diane771 » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:23 am

DK, you are missing my point completely. If someone was mauled in the woods by a bear and the bear ran off would he be repentive. I have asked you now plead with you to not use human standards and morals and societies codes and rules that apply to human on a vampire. But you refuse to do that. So unless you are willing to see Edward as non human and his basic food is human blood then we will not get any further. You can not judge him by human rules and make him repent which he does on his own, make him amend his ways which he does, and find redemtion when he does. Is that why you are treating him as a human and holding up him to our moral code of ethics, which so MANY people do not oblige to follow even though they are HUMAN and in the HUMAN Race. Don't make me come to CO now, you know you can't apply laws to something that not applicable. Edward is a vampire, Vampires are not Humans, they do not live under Human laws. Now I am not going to repeat DK I will just show up at you doors step because you are so stubborn11 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Postby una » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:48 pm

I think we've beaten this dead horse enough for now. Let's go for a new discussion topic.

In which book do you think Edward had the most personal growth? Why?
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