The Third Table

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Re: The Third Table

Postby MRK » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:15 pm

Alcyone....I'm not saying this in an offensive way...but I see now, you're a cynic. <~Do you agree?

I'm very curious...what do you think is antifeminist about the series. I've never understood the arguement...sure Bella decides to go some very traditional routes, but that's the point...she decided. Theres nothing more pro-female than that.
I married young, stopped working to have three kids and be a stay-at-home mom. I don't think that makes me any less pro-feminism than a woman who chooses to never get married and pursue a career. The point of it all is that we have a choice to do one or the other or everything all together. :)

Also...would you have liked the series more if Edward had given in to his cravings...would you have liked him more? Would you liked it more if he had never come back in NM or if he had never left at all? It's interesting to see it from your POV.
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Re: The Third Table

Postby Alcyone » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:09 pm

MRK wrote:Alcyone....I'm not saying this in an offensive way...but I see now, you're a cynic. <~Do you agree?


Hells yeah! *kicks Romantic!Alcy into closet*

I'm very curious...what do you think is antifeminist about the series.


1. Female wolves are menopausal; male wolves can continue to procreate.

2. Female half-vampires cannot turn others; the males can.

3. Women are used as incubators by Nahuel's father then allowed to die.

4. The female members of the Volturi coven apparently have no power. And might as well not have been mentioned for all they mattered.

5. Aro's female personal bodyguard is a whimpering coward. The males guarding the Volturi wives were huge, brawny and downright intimidating. (If I were a despot, my personal bodyguards would take classes from Israel's Secret Service. No fear. No hesitancy in stepping into the line of a bullet or flamethrower. Not needing bloody reassurance from the person they're supposed to protect.)

6. The kickass females (like Kate. Kate ftw!) are just a step above extras as in seen once, never heard from again. Or they're just mentioned like Maria.

7. Gianna wants to be a vampire. But not the right kind. So she gets eaten.

8. Bedward. 'Nough said. Besides, you really don't want to get me started on this topic. Especially on the matter of choice.

9. Charlie learns, somewhat, what happened to his daughter. Renee? Who's Renee? Was she a store clerk or something?

10. Esme was abused. Rosalie was raped. Alice was locked in a madhouse. How come all the women seem to have been tortured by other humans--men--before their turning?

And there are several others, but ten seemed a good, round number.



Also...would you have liked the series more if Edward had given in to his cravings...would you have liked him more?


You mean if he stopped being so very repressed, controlling and uptight? Maybe.

Would you liked it more if he had never come back in NM or if he had never left at all?


How about he actually takes the time to talk to Bella? You have no idea how long I waited for an actual conversation between those two, without evasions, without little white lies, without huge other lies... This obsession with not hurting the other to the point that they could not discuss most things calmly and work out problems that way made me want to strangle them both.
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Re: The Third Table

Postby December » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:41 pm

Aghhh! No, no (*she whimpered feebly*) not feminism. Not tonight.... I got up way too early this morning and my brain is like porridge and it's such a mired question. Can't we come back to this one when we're all feeling more sparkly? Like tomorrow?

(Or never?...How does never sound to you? *grin*)
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Re: The Third Table

Postby Alcyone » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:47 pm

December wrote:(Or never?...How does never sound to you? *grin*)


You've been brainwashing ouisa. I really don't like you right now. So if you don't like the question, I'm all for it.


Yes, I'm a vengeful, immature girl. Deal with it.
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Re: The Third Table

Postby MRK » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:50 pm

Alcyone wrote:
Hells yeah! *kicks Romantic!Alcy into closet*

lol...your poor romantic side...

I'm very curious...what do you think is antifeminist about the series
1. Female wolves are menopausal; male wolves can continue to procreate..


Nature...women get menopausal...men continue to procreate...I think its just for the convienience...I mean it probably wouldn't be a good thing for Leah to be phasing while pregnant. I was under the impression that she would regain her ability to have children once she stopped phasing.


2. Female half-vampires cannot turn others; the males can.

3. Women are used as incubators by Nahuel's father then allowed to die.


Honestly, I think that was just so Nessie wouldn't have to get whacked by the Volturi...but interesting...

4. The female members of the Volturi coven apparently have no power. And might as well not have been mentioned for all they mattered.


I don't see Aro and the rest having wives that can kick their a$$es...they wouldn't put Vamps with great power in a position to use that power to overthrow them...but again I can see where you're coming from...

5. Aro's female personal bodyguard is a whimpering coward. The males guarding the Volturi wives were huge, brawny and downright intimidating. (If I were a despot, my personal bodyguards would take classes from Israel's Secret Service. No fear. No hesitancy in stepping into the line of a bullet or flamethrower. Not needing bloody reassurance from the person they're supposed to protect.)


As we learned when Bella turned out to be the hero...it's not the size that matters, but the ability. Aro's guard may have been a coward...but he was better protected by her powers, now if you had said that he only protected the wives with a couple of Emmets...with no real power only strength...then I would see your point.

6. Jane's twin brother is higher up the food chain than she is. And she's overcome by childish fits of rage. Wonderful choice to showcase girl power.

Ok I didn't see this at all...I honestly saw Jane as higher up and the favorite of Aro

7. Gianna wants to be a vampire. But not the right kind. So she gets eaten.

Seriously...lol...you're stretching...how can they help it if she was yummy...lol...c'mon they just wanted a snack...does that make them anti=feminist?


9. Charlie learns, somewhat, what happened to his daughter. Renee? Who's Renee? Was she a store clerk or something?

Again, I see your point, but I think the point was that she had grown close to Charlie...and they wanted to protect Renee, besides she had more keen awarness it'd be harder to hide things from her. Isn't that more of an insult to Charlie...

10. Esme was abused. Rosalie was raped. Alice was locked in a madhouse. How come all the women seem to have been tortured by other humans--men--before their turning?

Having had a couple of these scenarios happen to me, myself...I seriously think you're missing the point. Seems more anti-man to me personally...but I think Carlise would have turned them only if their lives had been taken from them in the worst possible ways...and trust me, those are a couple of the worst ways. It's like he was trying to right a wrong.

And there are several others, but ten seemed a good, round number.

Those are a good 10 ;)
I just think you're trying to hard to find the negative...but at the same time I guess I could be a little naive





Would you liked it more if he had never come back in NM or if he had never left at all?


How about he actually takes the time to talk to Bella? You have no idea how long I waited for an actual conversation between those two, without evasions, without little white lies, without huge other lies... This obsession with not hurting the other to the point that they could not discuss most things calmly and work out problems that way made me want to strangle them both.


but what fun would that be lol...

btw...thanks for takin the time to explain your side... :)
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Re: The Third Table

Postby December » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:20 pm

Alcyone wrote:So if you don't like the question, I'm all for it.

Yes, I'm a vengeful, immature girl. Deal with it.

Well, talk to Ouisa and her Flipflop of Doom. This is her thread. If she wants to spend her time stamping out brushfires, it's up to her.

More seriously, kudos to all for managing to talk to each other about these tricky topics in a good-natured way.... (Well, as good-natured as is possible with a reputation to keep up! *grin*)
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Re: The Third Table

Postby nissanmama » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:36 am

Alcyone wrote:4. The female members of the Volturi coven apparently have no power. And might as well not have been mentioned for all they mattered.
Didn't SM say that Marco's was so in love with Aro's sister and that Aro off'd her so he could hang onto Marcus' powers and influence him? Clearly that whole love thing is pretty powerful with vamps. Marco's love for Didyme was more significant and powerful than the Volturi agenda.
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Re: The Third Table

Postby cullengirl » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:13 am

Alcyone wrote:How about he actually takes the time to talk to Bella? You have no idea how long I waited for an actual conversation between those two, without evasions, without little white lies, without huge other lies... This obsession with not hurting the other to the point that they could not discuss most things calmly and work out problems that way made me want to strangle them both.


THANK YOU! I've been waiting for this during the entire series. It seemed like it was going into that direction in Eclipse, but alas it was futile. Apparently having Nessie is just so much more important and a compromise between Bella and Edward.

MRK wrote:...it's not the size that matters, but the ability.


I know this isn't the Gutter, but ROFL. Thank God, I didn't have my cup of hot tea this morning or else I'll be covered up wth burns.
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Re: The Third Table

Postby Alcyone » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:48 am

nissanmama wrote:Didn't SM say that Marco's was so in love with Aro's sister and that Aro off'd her so he could hang onto Marcus' powers and influence him? Clearly that whole love thing is pretty powerful with vamps. Marco's love for Didyme was more significant and powerful than the Volturi agenda.


The living ones appear to be more decorational than anything. The don't even matter enough to be named in the actual text. An Index was required for that.

And it's Marcus, not Marco. Marco Polo is a different Italian.

MRK wrote:Ok I didn't see this at all...I honestly saw Jane as higher up and the favorite of Aro


Alec is leader of the Guard.

And the reason why I mention Jane is that Stephenie mentioned her as showcasing girl power. I fail to see the girl power, just because she can torture others mentally. I would think true "girl power" would be based on the woman herself rather than an extraneous ability.

Seriously...lol...you're stretching...how can they help it if she was yummy...lol...c'mon they just wanted a snack...does that make them anti=feminist?


Not at all. Gianna was Bella's counterpart except Gianna wanted to be the wrong type of vampire. This might also be indicative of yet another distasteful theme in the series, but eh.


Again, I see your point, but I think the point was that she had grown close to Charlie...


So the mother means nothing? Just the one who happens to be close by?

and they wanted to protect Renee, besides she had more keen awarness it'd be harder to hide things from her.


Why try to hide things, then? If she's so keenly aware, she would realize Charlie would be hiding something. Isn't that all the more reason to clue her in? For decency, at least?

Seems more anti-man to me personally...


Right. Because the man is the one being hurt.

It's like he was trying to right a wrong.


So we have a man playing God with two women's lives. While Esme may be thankful for it, we know for a fact that Rosalie would sacrifice everything--even Emmett--to have a human life again. What gives him the right?

As for Alice, her family sent her to the asylum. It wasn't so much men as a woman too. And women tend to be the ones to adhere to misogynistic tendencies the most.

I just think you're trying to hard to find the negative...


Actually, I pulled those off the top of my head. If I thought harder, I could come up with quite a few more.


cullengirl wrote:Apparently having Nessie is just so much more important and a compromise between Bella and Edward.


*shudder* Nessie. Miracle baby magically resolves all of parents' problems. Right. And I actually love Edward. In fact, I dream of his marble, chiseled chest and cry myself to sleep at night because I don't have him.
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Re: The Third Table

Postby MRK » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:15 pm

well, you don't fail to disappoint Alycone...lol...

Maybe I've hid so much to protect those I love to be able to take up issue with the whole Charlie/Renee thing...I can identify where Bella is coming from. If it werent for Jacob, Charlie may have never known. Instead of looking at is as, 'well Charlie got to know cause he is male...while Renee is just some simpering female'...I looked at it as, 'at least Bella didn't have to lose both her parents as she thought she would.'

*sigh* I think we are the two extremes lol...you're hard-core and I'm a softy. I refuse to believe SM had some crazed vision of demeaning women, and making the masses of young girls fall into subserviency with her books.

As the famous words go, "we are at an impasse." <~~ Thanks Edward lol...

So anyway...what else can we discuss?? This is fun, though I'm not very good at it...I can't debate to save my life...lol

Just take it easy on me Aly...trust me I'm not attacking you personally...just picking your brain...it's fun to open up the dark side every once in awhile! :twisted:
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