Gutter Guys & Gals : Full Moon Baking

[December]

Mod's Note:
We're moving this thread temporarily to the BD Movie Spoilers forum so you can discuss the movie to your heart's content. Feathers, headboards, Bake & Bite....ENJOY!

[corona]

Eight months later, some pervie is still thinking about vampire sex.

I want to amend some prior comments concerning vampire sex.

I was going back through the books looking at the experiences of those undergoing the initial transformation when I read again Bree's account of Riley and Victoria kissing.

The breeze turned helpfully gentle, and we could hear something. Strange little brushing, ticking sounds. At first I didn’t recognize what I was hearing, but then Diego twitched another little smile, puckered his lips, and silently kissed the air in my direction.

Kissing didn’t sound the same with vampires as it did with humans. No soft, fleshy, liquid-filled cells to squish against each other. Just stone lips, no give. I had heard one kiss between vampires before—-Diego’s touch to my lips last night—-but I never would have made the connection. It was so far from what I’d expected to find here.

The prior comments I need to amend is my belief that vampire sex was essentially like human sex. Perhaps I should say vampire contact instead of vampire sex. According to Bree, this is still like two marble statues embracing. Kissing is like stone lips without any give. The vampires themselves may perceive softness and warmth from their partners, but they are still essentially statues.

In other words, sex with a female vampire is IMPOSSIBLE. It doesn't matter whether the male partner is human or vampire. If something doesn't "give", then something is going to get broken.

Since canon states that sex is absolutely possible, that leaves only one conclusion. Vampire genitalia have different properties since that is how they are originally designed. Certain human qualities actually transfer over to the new body. That is how Bella is able to have sex her first night as a vampire without any issues, and why sex with Edward as a human wasn't exactly 100% like making love to a statue. That is how the Denalis have been doing it for centuries.

I can see that conceptually. I can also see why SM didn't want to go into detail on it. The obvious rationale is that sex must exist in this vampire world, regardless of other elements of world-building. IT HAS TO BE! But, SM is the world-builder, so she would have to offer some kind of scientific explanation for it. Yeah, I can see why she didn't want to do that.

This would also mean, for Jacob and Nessie fans, that there isn't going to be a problem. I have to admit, I kinda liked the thought of Jacob crashing his ship on the Rock of Gibraltar, but that isn't going to happen.

[marielle]

Austin, I can see sense in your theory. I also understand why SM won't go into details on this because it's too bloody confusing and too much options.

I myself was always in the understanding that vampire flesh had the ability to give in. To Bella, when she was human Edward's skin felt soft and like satin over steel. It makes me believe that at least the skin is flexible. Perhaps it's only the muscles and the bones that turn into granite during the transformation, the rest (soft tissue) becomes stronger but not unyielding.

That would explain why vampires are able to move at all because if everything turned to stone than the joints wouldn't have been able to move either. The soft tissue between the bones that makes movement possible for humans also need to be soft for a vampire to make movement possible.
So with that, genitalia are all made from soft tissue, a man's genitalia grows hard with blood, in a vampires case that will probably be venom, but it makes it fairly flexible... as flexible as male parts are at certain times. (if I remember correctly even with humans they are supposed to stay that way! )

For the female vampire, and human they genitalia is also made of soft tissue...only the muscles down there might not be as flexible for a vampire as they are for a human, but I don't think the male will have issues with that at all...

I really think the granite thing refers more to the coldness of the vampire flesh and maybe the smoothness but probably not the characteristics of it all...

To Bree's comment on the sound of kissing, Lips are mainly strong muscles, so she might have heard steel covered with satin grinding against eacht other....


(btw, Austin, I just love you for coming back to this topic... makes my day!!!)

[corona]

Marielle, I'm glad you like the subject. I was pretty tapped out on it until I read that Bree piece again and I had to rethink things. If I rethink things I usually spill everything out here.

Certainly there is flexibility, there has to be or else the vamps couldn't move or even convey expressions on their faces. The strange part is that while they are able to flex their own muscles they appear impervious to any outside force, sort of like Superman. Bella as human could smile, and you could make her smile by pushing up the corners of her mouth. Bella as vampire can still smile but you can't force her smile anymore, it would either be completely futile or something would crack (or someone would get their fingers bitten off).

In Bree's example, Victoria can pucker up and change the contours of her own lips effortlessly, but when Riley kisses her there is no give, like stone meeting stone. Victoria can change the shape of her lips, but Riley can't. Technically, that shouldn't be possible, but we're on more of a conceptual basis here. Victoria's orbicularis oris muscles can shape and pucker her mouth, but no other force on God's green earth is capable of that, just like Bella's zygomatic major muscles can pull her lips up into a smile and flex the granite contours of her skin, but are completely impervious to all other known forces.

In other words, vampiric soft tissue exists, but it responds only to forces that originate within the host body. And, it can respond very naturally to those internal forces with the full panoply of human expression. Bella even sees Edward wrinkling his nose in disgust at the smell of Jacob. It's like each vampire is its own universe containing its own unique rules of physics within themselves. The flesh on Edward's nose can bend and flex and crinkle when Edward responds to a foul odor, but a sledgehammer would have no effect. [I guess it could also be that Jacob's stench is even more powerful than we thought.]

Which is why the Bree story stumped me, the "no give" part. There absolutely is give when a vampire wills their own muscles to action. I had assumed there was some give when it was vampire to vampire contact, but apparently not. Strange.

Here is a bizarre question for fun. I am assuming Edward can flare his nostrils, if I can do it he can. But can his nostrils expand only when he is using the nasalis muscles of his nose, the same muscles that can wrinkle his nose in reaction to the stench that is Jacob? If he had to pick his nose would his nostril flare out from the finger's intrusion or would there be "no give" because he is using the wrong muscle (assuming no assist from his nasalis muscles)? If Bella tried to pick it for him I would assume there would be no give (unless Edward cheats with a little nasalis assist, and he might). And what is so damned special about Edward's finger, why would his work but Bella's wouldn't? I think this is the central question to the entire story. Solve the nose picking quandry and you've solved everything.

P.S. For a less crude example, when Edward pinches the bridge of his nose, does his skin indent under the pressure?

[Openhome]

So with that, genitalia are all made from soft tissue, a man's genitalia grows hard with blood, in a vampires case that will probably be venom, but it makes it fairly flexible... as flexible as male parts are at certain times. (if I remember correctly even with humans they are supposed to stay that way! )

Wouldn't that BURN???

For the female vampire, and human they genitalia is also made of soft tissue...only the muscles down there might not be as flexible for a vampire as they are for a human, but I don't think the male will have issues with that at all...

I think with enough practice, and with a REALLY good copy of the Kama Sutra, it might be possible to train those muscles to accept less, um, sturdy objects.

(btw, Austin, I just love you for coming back to this topic... makes my day!!!)

Couldn't agree more!

[smitten_by_twilight]

Eight months later, some pervie is still thinking about vampire sex.

I've been thinking about it all along (helped by some entertaining fanfic), I just haven't had anything new to say. Glad you did.

So with that, genitalia are all made from soft tissue, a man's genitalia grows hard with blood, in a vampires case that will probably be venom, but it makes it fairly flexible... as flexible as male parts are at certain times. (if I remember correctly even with humans they are supposed to stay that way! )

Wouldn't that BURN???

I will assume that the very knowledgeable Openhome is joshin' us. If they've got venom running through their bodies all the time and don't experience a burn, a sudden rush to one area should not burn ... except as a tingly sensation. Which would also be experienced by female vamps. *fans self*

I think that vampiric "soft" tissue could be as readily moved by other vamps as by oneself. A human can push up the corner of another human's mouth, but a jellyfish could not do that. Similarly, one vamp should be able to (so to speak) make a dent in another, push and indent the soft tissue at least a bit. Same density ... same stuff, really, just on a different person. A sledgehammer would not make an impression on a vampire because it is not dense and strong enough. I think the scene in Bree supports that actually:

The breeze turned helpfully gentle, and we could hear something. Strange little brushing, ticking sounds. At first I didn’t recognize what I was hearing, but then Diego twitched another little smile, puckered his lips, and silently kissed the air in my direction.

Kissing didn’t sound the same with vampires as it did with humans. No soft, fleshy, liquid-filled cells to squish against each other. Just stone lips, no give. I had heard one kiss between vampires before—-Diego’s touch to my lips last night—-but I never would have made the connection. It was so far from what I’d expected to find here.

If they were completely unindentable stone, they'd be making loud clonking sounds, not little ticking sounds. I think Bree exaggerates (oh these teenage girls that are our guides to vampiric lore) when she says there's NO give. There's just LESS give. Which has really interesting, really graphic implications for vampire intercourse, which of course Stephanie's not going to confirm or deny for us.

For the female vampire, and human they genitalia is also made of soft tissue...only the muscles down there might not be as flexible for a vampire as they are for a human, but I don't think the male will have issues with that at all...

Well, let's hope the decreased flexibility is an enhancement for everybody involved, and not a problem.

I think with enough practice, and with a REALLY good copy of the Kama Sutra, it might be possible to train those muscles to accept less, um, sturdy objects.

Um. Well, it has been done apparently, therefore it must be possible. I think that such training might also involve a progression of gradually less sturdy objects. But it does become clear why such interaction was dangerous for several reasons. Hopefully, rewarding for those poor guys in their last moments.

[marielle]

Gods I love this thead, especially when work is boring....

In Bree's example, Victoria can pucker up and change the contours of her own lips effortlessly, but when Riley kisses her there is no give, like stone meeting stone. Victoria can change the shape of her lips, but Riley can't.

I think you should also take into account that Victoria had no interest in Riley besides him leading her army. I think Vampire flesh can be yielding when the vampire in question wants too. Victoria wasn't giving into the kiss at all, she was disgusted by it because in her mind she was betraying her mate (dead mate).

As far as I understand, vampire to vampire feels the same as human to human. Only more durable. Edward tells Bella in Eclipse that she would still be soft and warm to him, only more durable.

Wouldn't that BURN???

... Serioulsy I was wondering how that would go with Bella and Edward the first time. With Bella being a virgin the bloom stream would open during their first intercourse, with Edward releasing his sailors, probably mixed with venom... Bella should feel a burn at the least...but them again, Edward was a virgin himself so it might have been all preserved human fluids.

think that vampiric "soft" tissue could be as readily moved by other vamps as by oneself. A human can push up the corner of another human's mouth, but a jellyfish could not do that

Yes, that's what I was thinking...

think Bree exaggerates (oh these teenage girls that are our guides to vampiric lore) when she says there's NO give. There's just LESS give.

I think we must take into account that Bree was a new born and what ever sanity she has to think on this she will most likely refer to her human experiences. Thus Vampire lips give less that Human lips... she see it like "no give" which is true probably with Victoria and Riley but her kiss with Diego didn't feel that much different from what I remember.

[corona]

Warning, I get a bit graphic here, but I can't find any other way.

I think the simplest solution is the best. My theory is that vampires are impervious to any outside force. If sufficient force is applied they don't bend or flex or indent, they crack and break. There are two exceptions to that, one being that they themselves can bend and flex where they are designed to (body movement, facial expressions), and the other exception is their genitalia, which retains flexibility even to the point of interaction with humans, because that is how sexual organs are designed. Certainly there are differences between vamps and humans, but not so different things become impossible. That solves all of the problems with the island honeymoon and the Denali ladies. Vampire to human contact is dangerous, but doable.

And there are problems with the island honeymoon under other scenarios unless male vampires uniquely are "hinged" like humans and capable of certain auto-correcting hands-free angle adjustments. Otherwise, a healthy teenaged male vampire that is pointing due north is going to have a real problem, having to manually adjust his angle with every single movement and maintaining strict control the entire time. One slip and Edward levitates Bella off the bed while simultaneously crushing her. One hand on the bed, one hand on himself, constantly arching. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun. Oh sure, for variety, but 100% of the time? Is it that dangerous? Would Edward consent if it was that dangerous? Would Bella be begging him to drop down from four fingers to three, and then two? Is that how Stephenie pictured things in her mind?

Sorry, don't mean to get graphic, really I don't, but I frankly always saw real problems there on the island with the vampire as a total marble statue. If it's a problem for the Denalis, it's also a problem for Edward.

If sex between B&E is at least somewhat normal in that one spot on their bodies, if Bella's mass is capable of taking one unique part of Edward and adjusting and moving him and herself for the best fit, then I don't see problems with the Denalis either. Remember, under all other circumstances, Bella's mass is otherwise of no consequence to Edward, he could casually reach his hand out to her and crush her skull. Going full horizontal, full contact with him should be impossible unless something is acting very differently in that one area. And we have Bella's description of them fitting together like two corresponding pieces, matching physically, and that things were simpler than she thought.

If it's dangerous but doable for B&E, it's dangerous but doable for Tanya, for the same reasons. If Edward is flexible there where he isn't anywhere else, then the same would go for Tanya.

And here's a few tidbits on that vampire to vampire contact, which is something I held until just recently.

Bella's first new-born kiss:

He took my face between his hands and leaned his face to mine—-slow enough to remind me to be careful. He kissed me, soft as a whisper at first, and then suddenly stronger, fiercer. I tried to remember to be gentle with him, but it was hard work to remember anything in the onslaught of sensation, hard to hold on to any coherent thoughts.

It was like he’d never kissed me—-like this was our first kiss. And, in truth, he’d never kissed me this way before.

So here is a full onslaught kiss, strong and fierce, just the way it should be. Edward is hungry.

And yet, there is no real physical description of what is happening. Because there isn't, I have always assumed that there isn't any more information that needs to be imparted (in fact, I didn't even think about it). This is a kiss. Bella doesn't say that their lips mashed together, yielding to their vampiric strength and lust. Neither does she say their lips lock like two marble statues, making strange noises in the process.

If something was unusual about that kiss, something would have been said, right?

In retrospect, though, isn't it odd that Bella tells us nothing about what happened then, or later in the cottage, or at any time thereafter? Nothing? Wouldn't the fact that Edward's lips yielded to hers have been startling enough that Bella would have said something? I think SM would have given us that info, absolutely, if that was the case. Which is why I find Bree important, because her story and Bella's story do not conflict.

[Chernaudi]

I'd love to post a reply, that that'll probably have to wait until tomorrow because of work. Sorry, but I'll be back.

[corona]

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, Sean. I know you've done a little fanfiction yourself. Kayla solved the problem in her stories a different way.

I want to add this in about the "vampire to vampire" contact issue. I hope no one is having a problem with my style, if I'm working something out in my head I try to come up with my best argument and then just set it down. It can come off as me seeming to consider myself authoritative on an issue, but that isn't the case at all, it's just my style. I have been absolutely wrong about a great many things concerning TW, so I could be embarrasingly wrong about this.

I held to a theory of vamp to vamp contact being somewhat similar to human to human for a long time because BD appears to show us that. However, going back through the text I can see where SM was very coy in her language. Something truly being "soft" is more accurately something that is malleable like human flesh. But SM almost exclusively talks about softness as a quality that is perceived by Bella, not as a true softness that gives under pressure.

When Bella first awakens:

But Carlisle’s assumption brought the burn to the forefront of my mind. Suddenly, the dry ache was all I could think about, and the more I thought about it, the more it hurt. My hand flew up to cup my throat, like I could smother the flames from the outside. The skin of my neck was strange beneath my fingers. So smooth it was somehow soft, though it was hard as stone, too.

Here, Bella explains why vampire skin feels soft. More importantly, her own skin feels as hard as stone to herself. This is a rewording of her description of Edward's skin being like velvet over steel. This passage strongly implies that her skin is unyielding even to her own hand. If the skin felt as hard as stone and yet still yielded to the pressure of her hand, wouldn't Bella have given us that tidbit? She could have said "So smooth it was somehow soft, my new skin hard as stone and yet strangely yielding to the contours of my fingers." In my opinion, she didn't say it because her skin didn't yield, and she would not have perceived her skin as being as hard as stone if it actually had yielded to her touch.

On the first hunt:

His lips crushed down on mine, but they felt soft. My lips no longer shaped themselves around his; they held their own.

This statement isn't definitive, depending on how you interpret it. Are Edward's lips actually soft or do they just feel soft? The "held their own" phrase leans pretty strongly towards a perception of softness while still remaining completely unyielding. If this contact was similar to humans, then the result wouldn't be Bella's lips holding their shape, it would be both of their lips shaping and yielding to each other. Bella's experience, then, wouldn't really be different as a vampire, it would be Edward's lips yielding to her that would be different, neither one's lips holding their shape. Bella's experience would be more as if Edward had suddenly become human to her.

The first night in the cottage:

"Miss what?” he murmured.
“All of it—the warmth, the soft skin, the tasty smell..."
<snip>
"You are soft.”
His fingers were like satin against my skin, so I could see what he meant.

Bella here is clearly talking about perception. The "soft skin" she mentions is her skin yielding to his when she was human. Bella already knows that Edward feels soft to her and likely vice versa. Edward is confirming that the soft feel of her skin is sufficient for him, even as she knows her true softness has been lost. Bella doesn't say "I could see he was right (duh, I am still soft and yielding to his touch)", she says "I could see what he meant". It clicks in her head, "I feel soft to him as he feels soft to me."

If vampire to vampire contact is similar to human contact, then Bella's experience with Edward would be more akin to Edward entering the human world than Bella entering the vampire world. Bella's experience with her own self would be remarkably unchanged. She would not perceive herself as having the hardness of stone except when dealing exclusively with the non-vampire elements of the world. She would not be as concerned about losing her "softness". And she would have certainly brought it up explicitly (that's my opinion only). But SM never once gives us anything definitive to actually support that theory.

Stephenie is very clever, though, in the way she writes BD. Bella becoming a vampire is adjustment enough. SM doesn't want to throw too much at us. Introducing our couple as diamond-hard lovers making ticking sounds when they kiss was something to be avoided, it is disrupting to the romance and takes us out of the story. Too much information imparted here would also lead to questions concerning that night in the cottage, and SM would be forced to provide more detail. Instead, she is very coy in presenting the information, always highlighting how soft the skin feels whenever she also tells us how hard the skin is.

One other thing I thought was notable. Bella is literally fearless in her new world. She gives no thought at all to danger. She doesn't think twice about attacking that mountain lion or having its claws rake against her skin. There is no doubt in her mind that she is completely invulnerable. She doesn't ever have second thoughts. That is consistent with Bella being like a marble statue in her new world, even in her interactions with Edward. If she had actually felt truly soft to herself or to Edward, I'd think that would introduce some doubt in her mind. Bella doesn't act as if she is intellectually aware of her invulnerability but is getting some mixed signals and needs to test things out, she acts as if there isn't the slightest possibility or concept of even needing a test.

I think that vampiric "soft" tissue could be as readily moved by other vamps as by oneself. A human can push up the corner of another human's mouth, but a jellyfish could not do that. Similarly, one vamp should be able to (so to speak) make a dent in another, push and indent the soft tissue at least a bit.

That was my interpretation for a long time. Since we are talking about impossibilities in any scenario, you have to pick and choose which one you can accept and which one you can't. Even if marble statues can walk and talk and appear to be human, they still can't make love unless something gives way, so we must be talking about some completely unknown physical laws applicable only to vampires. That makes the vampire sex conceptually understandable to us (diamond hard to everything else except other vampires), but still leaves some pretty massive problems for human to vampire sex (even for B&E).

Per Bella's comments the day after her honeymoon night, her pleasant exhaustion, and the extent of her bruising, I would say there was absolutely no "marble statue" difficulties in one area. One very specific thing functioned in a completely normal way. It isn't much of a leap to conceive that the Denalis also function in one area as "normal" enough to interact with humans. If that is true, then there isn't any technical need left for vampire to vampire contact being "as human" in order to explain sex.