Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edward#3

Things having to do with Twilight that are related to the book: fanfic, rpg, products, websites, book clubs, etc.

Moderators: Bronze Haired Girl, una

Forum rules
Click for Forum Rules

Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Tornado » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:03 pm

I agree with that, Amazone, although Edward knew Angela before Bella came along, so it's reasonable to assume that there was no real attraction there. That may, of course, be because he didn't notice her. He probably wouldn't have noticed Bella if it hadn't been for the fact her mind was closed and the scent of her blood so attractive. So maybe.

I don't really think there's anyone else in the saga that was suitable for him. Maybe Alice if she wasn't taken.
Image
Tornado
La Push Lover
 
Posts: 3028
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:06 pm
Location: The Land Down Under

Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby corona » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:11 pm

Hello Tornado and l_amazone, welcome to the forum.

I admit my Victoria example was rather nit-picky, but you can never have too powerful a microscope when trying to gather more examples for a good round of Jacob bashing. Fun stuff! You would have to admit, though, that Jacob had plenty of opportunity to inform Bella about Victoria's visit while she was gone, since Bella had made several phone calls. He didn't have to discuss that with Edward personally. I know that Jacob was taking advantage of the situation in order to get his own Edward jabs in, but I honestly think he believes he was also demonstrating that he knows Bella better than Edward, and that it's truly in her best interest to stay well informed (unless she has displeased him, and then the rules change).

It's also true that technically Bella coughs up the honeymoon info on her own, but she was provoked by Jacob's comment about her playing checkers since she would be incapable of having a real honeymoon. However much Jacob claims that he is trying to be good, he is mocking her marriage to Edward, and later confirms it when he recalls that "joke of a wedding".

How about this one, though, for the ultimate Jacob flip-flop:

Eclipse ch 26

B: "Maybe I’ll be such a menace that the pack will have to take me out.”
J: "I’d hamstring any one of my brothers who tried."

J: "You’ll always have that spare option if you want it.”
B: "Until my heart stops beating.”
J: “You know, I think maybe I’d still take you — maybe."

Breaking Dawn ch 8

J: "Well, what are we waiting for?" I asked. No one said anything, but I heard their feelings of hesitation. "Oh, come on! The treaty’s broken."
S: "So what are you going to do when Bella fights with them, Jacob? Huh?"
J: "She’s not Bella anymore."

And what has happened between those two conversations? Bella has married Edward and has had sex with him.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
User avatar
corona
Ignoring Renee's E-Mails
 
Posts: 715
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:37 pm
Location: Leah’s hideaway

Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby l_amazone » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:53 pm

corona wrote:My primary issue was at the end of Eclipse. Despite all of the digs at Edward and piling on the guilt for Bella, I can forgive everything if he is actually serious about "being good" and just being Bella's friend from now on. If that is the case, then I can grit my teeth and let him unload one last time. His very words indicate that he knows what path he should take from this point forward, and that it is the mature and ultimately most loving thing he could do for Bella. The King Solomon allusion is a bit rich, but I can grit my teeth all the same.

And then we get the wedding in Breaking Dawn. Wow.

"He cradled our hands to his chest; I could feel his heart beat under my palm, and I guessed that he hadn’t placed my hand there accidentally."

Right. From. The. Beginning. And it goes downhill from there.

This is why I loathe Jacob. It was all just a game. He meant none of his words when he told Bella he was going to be good. And here I had forgiven him, and he made a fool out of everyone, myself included. Fool me once...


Even if I'm team Edward, I have nothing against Jacob.

Here, you present Jacob as if he was calculating all this, as if the way he react was a game to win the trophy. As if he planed everything to have Bella feeling guilty and give her a wrong image of Edward.

I can't see Jacob this way...
First of all I'm not sure he is smart enough. I don't say that he is stupid, but in order to manipulate someone's feelings you need a large amount of superior intelligence and you also need a strong control of your emotions.
Jake, controlling his emotions? A cold manipulator?
I just can't imagine him being that. Even if he wasn't a wolf, he is so overpowered by his feelings the moment they submerge him. He made mistakes, and might have play double standard but I think it was mostly due to his immaturity ans his lack of control.

I hope you understand what I want to say... I think about all this in French and try to translate it, but I'm not sure it's very clear. :oops:
Bella: Jacob, it won't stay up!
Jacob: It will once you start moving!


The motorbike, of course! What were you thinking, Dude?
User avatar
l_amazone
Settled in Forks
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Southwest of France

Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby l_amazone » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:33 pm

Dovrebanen wrote:I'm sure this has been covered before. But I want to know, so...
Why are you guys Team Edward? What is about him that makes him so special for you? And please, if you want to, go on and on about this perfect man :D [/color]


Sorry to answer all the old questions...

I've always been fascinated by the tortured vampires on the (hard) way to redemption, even before Twilight was written. Louis, in Anne Rice's books was the first one that hooked me. And then, Angel the vampire with a soul in the TV series.
I forgot all about them for many years and then I read Twilight. And Edward was just so perfect in that role. To me he is the perfect essence of the dark knight fighting his true nature.
You can feel the century of suffering in the way he loves Bella. So noble and unselfish.

I think what I really love about Edward is how he feels those strong emotions as he knows so well human and vampire natures. As he can read minds, he perfectly knows what love, jealousy and desire are. He heard them so often in humans and in his family minds. But when he finally feels them by himself he is so mesmerized, that sometimes he can't even identify them for what they are. It makes me shiver!
Bella: Jacob, it won't stay up!
Jacob: It will once you start moving!


The motorbike, of course! What were you thinking, Dude?
User avatar
l_amazone
Settled in Forks
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Southwest of France

Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Tornado » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:30 pm

B: "Maybe I’ll be such a menace that the pack will have to take me out.”
J: "I’d hamstring any one of my brothers who tried."

J: "You’ll always have that spare option if you want it.”
B: "Until my heart stops beating.”
J: “You know, I think maybe I’d still take you — maybe."

Breaking Dawn ch 8

J: "Well, what are we waiting for?" I asked. No one said anything, but I heard their feelings of hesitation. "Oh, come on! The treaty’s broken."
S: "So what are you going to do when Bella fights with them, Jacob? Huh?"
J: "She’s not Bella anymore."


Yes, but again, this isn't so much calculating as just a young (and very immature!) man who is jealous. He's obviously reflecting on a lot of things after his injury, and is behaving himself as much as possible, but after the wedding and how badly he took it, he's looking for something as a release for his anger. And as Seth says right there, and as he himself acknowledges later, it's not a fight he is ready for. He's just doing his usual act-on-impulse thing. Which is again a sign of his immaturity.

I agree with amazone that to be a manipulator on the level necessary to have done all this would take a great deal of self control and calculation. He just isn't capable of that. He's just behaving like your average teenage boy - letting the testosterone take over before he bothers to think. It's when he does that that I dislike Jacob. When he actually stops to think - which is rare, but does happen - that's when I like him. And there's every reason to believe that as he gets older, especially now that he has (hopefully) seen what a great person his father-in-law-to-be is, he will start imitating him a little, and will gain some maturity, and learn to think before he acts.
Image
Tornado
La Push Lover
 
Posts: 3028
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:06 pm
Location: The Land Down Under

Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby pennybug84 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:00 am

I have to agree w/Corona on the previous conversation. Jacob is a manipulator. Just because he is immature (one of the reasons I don't like him) doesn't mean he can't manipulate Bella. I know someone who is immature & yet she is a very good manipulator. For me one of the biggest examples of this is the kiss in Eclipse. Jacob manipulates Bella into kissing him. :banghead: :x :evil:
Image
"She doesn't know what she wants" - Jacob Black "Yeah she does!" - Rob Pattinson
User avatar
pennybug84
Protector of Jacob's Honor
 
Posts: 4087
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: hoping 2012 is better than 2011 was

Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Jazz Girl » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:53 am

l_amazone wrote:Here, you present Jacob as if he was calculating all this, as if the way he react was a game to win the trophy. As if he planed everything to have Bella feeling guilty and give her a wrong image of Edward.


But, that's exactly what he is trying to do. It's all he ever tries to do. He wants Bella to choose him, plain and simple. It's as he says himself. He is willing to try anything to achieve what he wants. If it means making Bella feel guilty, hurting her... in the end, he doesn't care. The ends (Bella choosing him) justify the means.

l_amazone wrote:I can't see Jacob this way...
First of all I'm not sure he is smart enough. I don't say that he is stupid, but in order to manipulate someone's feelings you need a large amount of superior intelligence and you also need a strong control of your emotions.
Jake, controlling his emotions? A cold manipulator?
I just can't imagine him being that. Even if he wasn't a wolf, he is so overpowered by his feelings the moment they submerge him. He made mistakes, and might have play double standard but I think it was mostly due to his immaturity ans his lack of control.

I hope you understand what I want to say... I think about all this in French and try to translate it, but I'm not sure it's very clear. :oops:



I'm not sure I agree. You don't necessarily have to have superior intelligence to manipulate someone. You just have to know their soft spots, what to attack to get the reaction you want. Look no further than Edward in New Moon when he is breaking up with Bella. Many people argue that he's smarter than she is. I don't believe that. Yes, he has more processing ability, a greater amount of space to work things out, but that's not necessarily superior intelligence as much as capacity. But, either way, Edward manipulates Bella's emotions to get her to let go of him by going after her biggest insecurity; that she's not enough for him, that she isn't special enough to deserve him. Jacob does exactly the same thing. He knows all about Bella's guilt over his emotional state and he plays it like a master. It's why Edward is always calling him on it. Bella doesn't see his manipulations for what they are. But EVERYONE around her does. Why he does it, ie immaturity, lashing out, overwhelmed by his emotions, whatever, doesn't make it any less manipulative.
“Directing 7 Cullens at once=herding cats" :ROTFLMAO:
C-Dubs is TwitterRoyalty
Image
Turning Page is Gospel~Ashley=MiniMe~HHBS
User avatar
Jazz Girl
Making beautiful music with Edward as only I can
 
Posts: 5119
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Rob's HalfwayHouse, shacked up with some FicWard.

Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby l_amazone » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:41 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:But, that's exactly what he is trying to do. It's all he ever tries to do. He wants Bella to choose him, plain and simple. It's as he says himself. He is willing to try anything to achieve what he wants. If it means making Bella feel guilty, hurting her... in the end, he doesn't care. The ends (Bella choosing him) justify the means.


So you really think he is the most selfish of the 3? That he manipulates her because his only concern is to have her (for his own gain, I mean)? You don't think at all that his "play dirty" is just a desperate way to keep her human?
I see what you mean and of course I'm aware that my opinion is certainly a bit naive. But I always want to find excuses for someone's misbehavior.

Jazz Girl wrote:I'm not sure I agree. You don't necessarily have to have superior intelligence to manipulate someone. You just have to know their soft spots, what to attack to get the reaction you want. Look no further than Edward in New Moon when he is breaking up with Bella. Many people argue that he's smarter than she is. I don't believe that. Yes, he has more processing ability, a greater amount of space to work things out, but that's not necessarily superior intelligence as much as capacity. But, either way, Edward manipulates Bella's emotions to get her to let go of him by going after her biggest insecurity; that she's not enough for him, that she isn't special enough to deserve him. Jacob does exactly the same thing. He knows all about Bella's guilt over his emotional state and he plays it like a master. It's why Edward is always calling him on it. Bella doesn't see his manipulations for what they are. But EVERYONE around her does. Why he does it, ie immaturity, lashing out, overwhelmed by his emotions, whatever, doesn't make it any less manipulative.


I think that very good manipulators really need to have a huge control over themselves. Like Edward does. I think he can manipulate her in New Moon not only because he knew her soft spots (at the end of NM he says that he was prepared to lie for hours!) but because he had a century to learn how to control himself and to be a perfect liar.

But I realise while reading your lines that maybe Jacob can manipulate Bella because she cares so much for him? Even if he is not a really good one (like you said, everyone around her sees what he is doing), he can reach her because her feelings made her blind? That's an interresting point of view. Thanks! ^^
Bella: Jacob, it won't stay up!
Jacob: It will once you start moving!


The motorbike, of course! What were you thinking, Dude?
User avatar
l_amazone
Settled in Forks
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Southwest of France

Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby Jazz Girl » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:39 pm

l_amazone wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:But, that's exactly what he is trying to do. It's all he ever tries to do. He wants Bella to choose him, plain and simple. It's as he says himself. He is willing to try anything to achieve what he wants. If it means making Bella feel guilty, hurting her... in the end, he doesn't care. The ends (Bella choosing him) justify the means.


So you really think he is the most selfish of the 3? That he manipulates her because his only concern is to have her (for his own gain, I mean)? You don't think at all that his "play dirty" is just a desperate way to keep her human?
I see what you mean and of course I'm aware that my opinion is certainly a bit naive. But I always want to find excuses for someone's misbehavior.


First, let me commend you on seeing the way all three main characters manipulate each other. Most people tend to ignore the way Bella plays both men. So, kudos to you on that. I do see Jacob as the most selfish. Both Edward and Jacob want to keep Bella human. But, Edward's manipulations are designed to keep Bella human because he does not want what he sees as a monstrous life for her. He believes that if he can keep her human long enough, she may or may not choose to stay with him, but she'll at least see the value of being human and living a "normal" human life. Jacob's obsession with keeping Bella human is so that he can have her. He doesn't distinguish between the two, in my opinion. In Jacob's head, Bella remaining human means Bella choosing him and a future with him.


l_amazone wrote:I think that very good manipulators really need to have a huge control over themselves. Like Edward does. I think he can manipulate her in New Moon not only because he knew her soft spots (at the end of NM he says that he was prepared to lie for hours!) but because he had a century to learn how to control himself and to be a perfect liar.

But I realise while reading your lines that maybe Jacob can manipulate Bella because she cares so much for him? Even if he is not a really good one (like you said, everyone around her sees what he is doing), he can reach her because her feelings made her blind? That's an interresting point of view. Thanks! ^^


Oh, I totally agree that being able to control one's reactions is very helpful in manipulating someone. It certainly makes the manipulation easier. But, to me, that's not so much control as just being a good actor, which is a skill Edward has mastered out of necessity over the last century.

As to Jacob using Bella's feelings for him to manipulate her, that's what manipulation is. It's pressing the right buttons and emphasizing the right circumstances to get a desired reaction out of someone. Emotional manipulation is what most people use. It's the easiest form. Manipulating circumstances and situations is much more difficult simply because those things are harder to control. People, on the other hand, tend to be very easy to predict and control. Human emotions are universal. Therefore, the triggers are pretty easy to figure out. Jacob and Bella are a perfect example. Jacob knows that Bella hates for people around her, especially those she cares about, to be hurt. She especially hates to be the cause of that pain. So, what does he do? He says and does things to emphasize exactly how much her choosing Edward and becoming a vampire hurts him. He very deliberately chooses his comments to her to inflict maximum guilt and make her question her decision. The difference between Edward and Jacob comes in what they do to temper her reaction. Edward, while choosing words to make her question her choice to become a vampire (taking her to see Renee at the beginning of Eclipse or reminding her about having to give up her human friends and family) says and does everything he can to alleviate any guilt she feels about hurting him if she chooses to stay human. Jacob, on the other hand, does everything he can to inflict that guilt, to sharpen it (his comments about not needing a friend, telling her about how he'll have to hate her once she's a vampire). He wants her to hurt over her decision. To me, it's one of the clearest differences between Edward and Jacob and one of the reasons I refuse to see Jacob's feelings for Bella as anything more than an immature crush at best.
“Directing 7 Cullens at once=herding cats" :ROTFLMAO:
C-Dubs is TwitterRoyalty
Image
Turning Page is Gospel~Ashley=MiniMe~HHBS
User avatar
Jazz Girl
Making beautiful music with Edward as only I can
 
Posts: 5119
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Rob's HalfwayHouse, shacked up with some FicWard.

Re: Edward Cullen bringing sexy back since 1901 -- Team Edwa

Postby 21Twilight21 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:45 pm

Wow I've been waiting for someone to post so I could post again and when I'm not waiting there happens to be great discussions going on :O!! Lol! I wish I could add my thoughts to these questions and answers, but it would take too long to type everything out from this iTouch :lol:! I'll have to contribute later!

I want to applaud Corona and Jazz Girl for many of the points that have been made about Edward, Bella, and Jacob!! There have been very interesting details that were brought up by everyone, but I agree on so many levels with what you two have said :D!


☮ ♥ ツ Kym

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]
Thanks Chrissy for my banner:
Image
~Call me Kym~ I'm on the ListV2! *Paige is my TSB* Chrissy is my Talented Artist Friend :)
^Fee-B is my dependable buddy^
User avatar
21Twilight21
Lured By the Scent
 
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Trying To Decide Between Edward, Stefan, & Dimitri <3!

PreviousNext

Return to In the Twilight Zone

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron