corona wrote:My primary issue was at the end of Eclipse. Despite all of the digs at Edward and piling on the guilt for Bella, I can forgive everything if he is actually serious about "being good" and just being Bella's friend from now on. If that is the case, then I can grit my teeth and let him unload one last time. His very words indicate that he knows what path he should take from this point forward, and that it is the mature and ultimately most loving thing he could do for Bella. The King Solomon allusion is a bit rich, but I can grit my teeth all the same.
And then we get the wedding in Breaking Dawn. Wow.
"He cradled our hands to his chest; I could feel his heart beat under my palm, and I guessed that he hadn’t placed my hand there accidentally."
Right. From. The. Beginning. And it goes downhill from there.
This is why I loathe Jacob. It was all just a game. He meant none of his words when he told Bella he was going to be good. And here I had forgiven him, and he made a fool out of everyone, myself included. Fool me once...
Dovrebanen wrote:I'm sure this has been covered before. But I want to know, so...
Why are you guys Team Edward? What is about him that makes him so special for you? And please, if you want to, go on and on about this perfect man [/color]
B: "Maybe I’ll be such a menace that the pack will have to take me out.”
J: "I’d hamstring any one of my brothers who tried."
J: "You’ll always have that spare option if you want it.”
B: "Until my heart stops beating.”
J: “You know, I think maybe I’d still take you — maybe."
Breaking Dawn ch 8
J: "Well, what are we waiting for?" I asked. No one said anything, but I heard their feelings of hesitation. "Oh, come on! The treaty’s broken."
S: "So what are you going to do when Bella fights with them, Jacob? Huh?"
J: "She’s not Bella anymore."
l_amazone wrote:Here, you present Jacob as if he was calculating all this, as if the way he react was a game to win the trophy. As if he planed everything to have Bella feeling guilty and give her a wrong image of Edward.
l_amazone wrote:I can't see Jacob this way...
First of all I'm not sure he is smart enough. I don't say that he is stupid, but in order to manipulate someone's feelings you need a large amount of superior intelligence and you also need a strong control of your emotions.
Jake, controlling his emotions? A cold manipulator?
I just can't imagine him being that. Even if he wasn't a wolf, he is so overpowered by his feelings the moment they submerge him. He made mistakes, and might have play double standard but I think it was mostly due to his immaturity ans his lack of control.
I hope you understand what I want to say... I think about all this in French and try to translate it, but I'm not sure it's very clear.
Jazz Girl wrote:But, that's exactly what he is trying to do. It's all he ever tries to do. He wants Bella to choose him, plain and simple. It's as he says himself. He is willing to try anything to achieve what he wants. If it means making Bella feel guilty, hurting her... in the end, he doesn't care. The ends (Bella choosing him) justify the means.
Jazz Girl wrote:I'm not sure I agree. You don't necessarily have to have superior intelligence to manipulate someone. You just have to know their soft spots, what to attack to get the reaction you want. Look no further than Edward in New Moon when he is breaking up with Bella. Many people argue that he's smarter than she is. I don't believe that. Yes, he has more processing ability, a greater amount of space to work things out, but that's not necessarily superior intelligence as much as capacity. But, either way, Edward manipulates Bella's emotions to get her to let go of him by going after her biggest insecurity; that she's not enough for him, that she isn't special enough to deserve him. Jacob does exactly the same thing. He knows all about Bella's guilt over his emotional state and he plays it like a master. It's why Edward is always calling him on it. Bella doesn't see his manipulations for what they are. But EVERYONE around her does. Why he does it, ie immaturity, lashing out, overwhelmed by his emotions, whatever, doesn't make it any less manipulative.
l_amazone wrote:Jazz Girl wrote:But, that's exactly what he is trying to do. It's all he ever tries to do. He wants Bella to choose him, plain and simple. It's as he says himself. He is willing to try anything to achieve what he wants. If it means making Bella feel guilty, hurting her... in the end, he doesn't care. The ends (Bella choosing him) justify the means.
So you really think he is the most selfish of the 3? That he manipulates her because his only concern is to have her (for his own gain, I mean)? You don't think at all that his "play dirty" is just a desperate way to keep her human?
I see what you mean and of course I'm aware that my opinion is certainly a bit naive. But I always want to find excuses for someone's misbehavior.
l_amazone wrote:I think that very good manipulators really need to have a huge control over themselves. Like Edward does. I think he can manipulate her in New Moon not only because he knew her soft spots (at the end of NM he says that he was prepared to lie for hours!) but because he had a century to learn how to control himself and to be a perfect liar.
But I realise while reading your lines that maybe Jacob can manipulate Bella because she cares so much for him? Even if he is not a really good one (like you said, everyone around her sees what he is doing), he can reach her because her feelings made her blind? That's an interresting point of view. Thanks! ^^
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