Discrepancies

A discussion of the novella The Short Second Life of Bree Tanner

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Re: Discrepancies

Postby MiVidaLoca » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:04 pm

andypalmer wrote:
MiVidaLoca wrote:I think if the Cullens would have tried to Provoke them with old allegations that they had no proof of at the scene in BD than the Volturi would have put it down and than brought up their own allegations that the Cullens made this stuff up to try and over take the Volturi etc. etc. That's how I see it.
Oh, I'm not saying to use it to provoke a fight, but I think there were a few key moments in Aro's show, when he was trying to take the moral high ground with the audience, that an inquiry, "if you're so concerned with protecting vampire kind, then why did Jane and members of your guard meet with the creator the newborns that were creating so much havoc in Seattle? My friends and I managed to take care of the problem, but your guard were there almost a week before hand and did nothing but encourage Victoria. How does my grand-daughter create more risk for our kind than the acts of your own guard?" Nothing to initiate a fight (as Aro couldn't afford to attack in response as it would be seen as validating Carlisle's comments), but certainly enough to quiet down the crowd of witnesses even earlier. If done early enough, it might even have prevented Irina's death.


I am not saying they would have intentionally tried to provoke a fight, but that I think it would have provoked a fight. What proof did they have that the Jane did that? Everyone involved was dead. I think if that would have happened, it would have been flipped into something else to try and make the Cullens look like they had ulterior motives. The Cullens had the Romanians with them that wanted the power back. They had all their "witnesses" I think it could have been flipped easily and because people feared the Volturi so much, they would have went around with it. They were saying how they could have all their witnesses killed in no time, Bella kept commenting when some would leave, that she hopes that the Volturi are to distracted to go after them. So I think even if the Volturi would have attacked they could have just got rid of the witnesses and who is going to go after them and question what happened?

Now who knows how it all would have turned out with Bella's power and some of the players they had on their side, but during that discussion time, know one even knew Bella was protecting everyone or could. Edward couldn't read her mind to know this. So from where they are standing, it would have been a huge risk to even "stand up" to the Volturi and Edward and Carlisle weren't willing to risk their friends and family being killed. Carlisle was very reluctant even having people there to witness, because it could end in their death.

Fear can take away peoples rationale thoughts, it can have people going along with whatever to save themselves. I think the Volturi had just about everyone stuck in that fear.

It's hard for me to type out what I am trying to explain so hopefully it makes sense.
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby December » Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:34 pm

Well, I was wondering about something different.

The implication of Bree's story is that you can hurt a vampire simply by burning them.

And that seems to me, if not actually inconsistent with what we understood in Twilight, at least a bit of a game-changer. At any rate, it seriously alters our original impression of vampires as these magnificent, impervious, marble inhumans.

Twilight makes it seem as though to harm a vampire you have to have enough strength (or werewolf superpowers) to rip them into two first. Burning the bits was just a way of making sure they're destroyed for keeps. But what Riley reportedly does to Diego, anyone could do. Ok, I grant you it would be hard for ordinary mortals to hold a vampire still; but if fire can do damage to a vampire while they're still whole, well...there must be ways of sneaking up on one with a flame thrower or something. Not saying it would be easy: but once you picture vampires as vulnerable to fire, we're in a different imaginative universe. They're just that bit less divinely untouchable. And I'm wondering why Stephenie chose to do it...

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Re: Discrepancies

Postby dandyvampgirl_13 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:22 pm

Really? I've always thought vampires were vulnerable to open flames. I really don't think you could just catch one on fire, because unless vampires sweat venom or they've drooled all over themselves, there's no venom outside the body to use as an accelerant. Maybe if you caught their eyeballs on fire, or shot flames right in their mouth, that could do damage, but their skin must be fairly impervious until punctured. However, an inferno, like a bomb or getting stuck in a huge burning building, would be enough heat to practically vaporize their bodies. It'd be like throwing metal in a forge, or marble in a volcano. Enough heat would crack anything, by the laws of nature.

I thought Riley ripped Diego to bits first, but maybe I didn't read carefully enough. I was probably glaring at the screen, anyways.

Also, didn't a Cullen (probably Edward) say that the Volturi would sometimes burn vampires whole? Alec would take away their senses, then they'd be lit on fire. That could be possible backup to what you think happened. I would assume the Volturi would tear something off first, or make a small puncture, then lit that, but... it could go either way.
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby December » Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:30 pm

Hmmm. Maybe I'm just thinking of what we know pre-BD. I don't think there's much mention of setting vampires on fire whole in the first three books.

I have to say, I got the impression that Riley was talking about undetached vampire parts.

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Re: Discrepancies

Postby JustMe44 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:42 pm

December you have a good point. While reading Bree Tanner I remembered (although post-BD) when Bella was waiting on J. Jenks in the restaurant to obtain her illegal documents, she was mesmerized by the fire and thought about what it would feel like to put her hand in it, etc. That was a scary moment for me because the way I understood it the venom is very flammable, but on p. 667 it says "I stood by the fire to wait, holding my fingers close to the flame to warm them a little before the inevitable handshake," so I suppose it has to make actual contact with the skin.

And as for Diego's death as awful as it is.. p. 105 says that his legs were torn off and the other stuff was just burned off slowly. ::winces::
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby December » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:09 pm

Exactly. Burnt off slowly. Very different from torn to shreds in titanic conflict with other marble titans and then incinerated for good measure. Just seems a lot less...majestically invulnerable.
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby MiVidaLoca » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:37 pm

December wrote:Hmmm. Maybe I'm just thinking of what we know pre-BD. I don't think there's much mention of setting vampires on fire whole in the first three books.

I have to say, I got the impression that Riley was talking about undetached vampire parts.

Gavagai.



So did I. I got the impression the parts were taken off and burned, I don't know though, but SM said in one of the Correspondence on this site I believe, that like if they were in an explosion or something it could hurt them. She said good luck on an average person though being able to get one up on them.
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby Openhome » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:23 pm

I remember that as well, that SM said that they were flammable, almost incendiary. If a vamp wasn't being held down, though, they would be able to put out the flames. When Aro mentioned that humans were almost capable of destroying them, this is what I envisioned -- that modern incendiary devices could possibly destroy a vamp. Really, that fact alone is the only thing, I think, that keeps the vamps at bay. Sure, you want an unsuspecting herd, but really a big enough group of vamps could control a large city fairly easily. I know this would lead to endless war, but that isn't reason enough to keep from simply keeping huge breeding populations around. However, if, if, vamps have this one weakness, their form of kryptonite, then the whole secrecy thing makes a lot more sense.
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby dandyvampgirl_13 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:59 pm

Its like Bugs Life! The grasshoppers were only in control as long as the ants didn't think they had weaknesses and could stand up to them. After that, Hopper and his gang were so easy to take down.

I would assume the Volturi has done research on exactly how flammable vampires are, but they prefer to keep it to themselves- like Victoria and Riley not telling the nweborns about the sparkling, if normal vampires don't know that they could spontaneously combust (not that they could really do that, but it'd be cool) it's a secret the Volturi holds over their heads- a weapon.
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Re: Discrepancies

Postby Seeker-Mar » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:59 pm

I pictured nuclear weapons when Aro was talking about weapons that could possibly destroy a vampire. But maybe he meant less extreme weapons as well. Anyway, it's still the same question. Does enough heat = goodbye vampire. Maybe like was said it would start by igniting their eyes first and then spread?

Maybe Victoria was able to burn off poor Diego's bits because she had already pulled off his legs. Could she have used the venom from his legs to ignite others parts.

Or maybe she sucked on his fingers one by one and coated his parts with her own venom! The sadistic monster.
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