Edward and Bella #1

[ringswraith]

diane771: You make it sound like Bella, having lost Edward, went for her "second choice" and started a relationship with Jacob. It's not like that at all. People sometimes forget that they are friends or that they started as such. She had other people her age to go to- Angela would have been such a person. But she wouldn't understand the whole situation like Jacob would, especially once he experiences his first change. The Blacks have been present in Bella's life for as long as she can remember- it only made sense to go to someone you trust when you're feeling down.

[diane771]

diane771: You make it sound like Bella, having lost Edward, went for her "second choice" and started a relationship with Jacob. It's not like that at all. People sometimes forget that they are friends or that they started as such. She had other people her age to go to- Angela would have been such a person. But she wouldn't understand the whole situation like Jacob would, especially once he experiences his first change. The Blacks have been present in Bella's life for as long as she can remember- it only made sense to go to someone you trust when you're feeling down.

No Ringswrath, you are saying exactly what I have been saying all along, she went to Jacob because she was most comfortable with and could relate to and also knew better. That is what I do believe because, she couldn't go to Angela or anyone else and Jacob was someone she knew that she could open up to. I hope that you didn't think that I meant anything other than that, because I have been consistant with this thought since I read the book. But Bella went to Jacob as a friend, also for someone that she knew and could lean on too. When Knives brought up the co-dependency I do think after Bella and Jacob got closer, she did go a a little overboard on depending on him. In someways that were not healthy for either of them, because of the pain that it caused to both, Jacob by him falling in love with her, and to Edward trying to understand her relationship with Jacob. In the way Bella acted you could call it co-dependency. But Jacob did get the signals wrong and I don't believe that Bella in anyway would have gone to Jacob, if she knew how much pain that it end up causing the two most important people in her life.

[holdingoutforjacob]

Eh, Jacob got the signals wrong but Bella was sending out weird signals. She may not have been sending out signals that she was interested in him at the time, but she definitely sent out signals that she could be if she got over Edward. I don't think anyone is to blame for the Edward/Bella/Jacob fiasco, and I think it was something that had to happen, if nothing else, for Edward's peace of mind. Think about it, if you were Edward, wouldn't you feel better changing Bella knowing that she had been shown the alternative, realized it was something she wanted, and then decided she wanted you more? Then you don't have worry about her realizing it too late, plus it evaporates some of the guilt.

I want to clarify from my earlier point. I view the health of a relationship like the health of a person. It's constantly fluctuating, and it can be healthy in one area and unhealthy in the next. I don't think it's particularly healthy in New Moon or Eclipse, but then again, both Edward and Bella are not particularly emotionally healthy then.

One of my favorite things about their entire relationship is how much Edward understands. He understands that she needs to have experiences outside of him, he understands that while it may kill him to watch, she needs to have Jacob in her life. Sometimes he slips up, but I think he really does try to bend to her wishes in the human realm as much as possible, and he realizes what she is sacrificing to be with him. I think that Edward is what keeps their relationship healthy.

[diane771]

Eh, Jacob got the signals wrong but Bella was sending out weird signals. She may not have been sending out signals that she was interested in him at the time, but she definitely sent out signals that she could be if she got over Edward. I don't think anyone is to blame for the Edward/Bella/Jacob fiasco, and I think it was something that had to happen, if nothing else, for Edward's peace of mind. Think about it, if you were Edward, wouldn't you feel better changing Bella knowing that she had been shown the alternative, realized it was something she wanted, and then decided she wanted you more? Then you don't have worry about her realizing it too late, plus it evaporates some of the guilt.

I want to clarify from my earlier point. I view the health of a relationship like the health of a person. It's constantly fluctuating, and it can be healthy in one area and unhealthy in the next. I don't think it's particularly healthy in New Moon or Eclipse, but then again, both Edward and Bella are not particularly emotionally healthy then.

One of my favorite things about their entire relationship is how much Edward understands. He understands that she needs to have experiences outside of him, he understands that while it may kill him to watch, she needs to have Jacob in her life. Sometimes he slips up, but I think he really does try to bend to her wishes in the human realm as much as possible, and he realizes what she is sacrificing to be with him. I think that Edward is what keeps their relationship healthy.

That is really a positive way of looking at it that I didn''t see till you pointed it out. Good job holdingoutforjacob, the part that Bella had an alternative way in life, yet chose to be with Edward. And I agree also the relationship in NM was very unhealthy for all of them and it was only when BD came that it all fell into place. I know of hardly anyone would be as understanding as Edward is with Bella and I think that is one of the reason the we fell in love with him. I know I could never be that understanding. NO way.!

[ringswraith]

No Ringswrath, you are saying exactly what I have been saying all along, she went to Jacob because she was most comfortable with and could relate to and also knew better. That is what I do believe because, she couldn't go to Angela or anyone else and Jacob was someone she knew that she could open up to. I hope that you didn't think that I meant anything other than that, because I have been consistant with this thought since I read the book. But Bella went to Jacob as a friend, also for someone that she knew and could lean on too. When Knives brought up the co-dependency I do think after Bella and Jacob got closer, she did go a a little overboard on depending on him. In someways that were not healthy for either of them, because of the pain that it caused to both, Jacob by him falling in love with her, and to Edward trying to understand her relationship with Jacob. In the way Bella acted you could call it co-dependency. But Jacob did get the signals wrong and I don't believe that Bella in anyway would have gone to Jacob, if she knew how much pain that it end up causing the two most important people in her life.

Ah, I see. Sorry I misunderstood.

[loonymoonyy]

*since this seems to offend* just wondering would any of you honestly want edward cullen to stalk you ... if he was ugly. . also why is it okay for him to take the engine out of her car? now im not bashing but please answer the questions honestly

[holdingoutforjacob]

it's not okay, in my opinion. What happened with the truck will never EVER be okay, and I'm relieved that someone else can comprehend what a horrendous move that was on Edward's part.

That brings up another good point - how much are we willing to excuse on Edward's part simply because he's Edward?

[amethyst]

just wondering would any of you honestly want edward cullen to stalk you ... if he was ugly. if edward was not a sparkly pixie would you be okay with him stalking you. also why is it okay for him to take the engine out of her car? now im not bashing but please answer the questions honestly

First, Edward is a vampire. And regardless of how human he can be, he is not a part of human society. The obsessive, vampire stalker in him is really just that, nothing. However, he regarded himself as Bella’s angel, he wanted to protect her and so he did, only hiding in the shadows . . . Add to that, Bella is in love with him, so him protecting her was more flattering than creepy to her and me. For me, if it was truly someone as genuine, and authentic as Edward is . . . Well not even that, it would be down right creepy if it was a human person *shudder* . . . If it was a human boy, the boy definitely has problems and he should be checked out as soon as possible. It really is completely and distinctly different. But I’d properly call 911 and move out of the country. Seriously, I have deathly fears of such things.

About the truck . . . I don’t really have much problems with it, I DO think he was out of line but to me I like to consider first and foremost the intent and motives. If for instance someone was motivated by something altruistic and he acted by those motivations only to mess up, it would properly be frustrating but really understandable and even endearing. If for another instance, Edward did it for the sake of wanting to control Bella, where his intent was completely despicable then I would be surprised that Bella stayed with him. If someone did something such as, he will do it again. There are no guarantees, but of coarse that wasn’t Edward’s intent or motivation (I.e to control Bella) so I tend to regard those things (dismantling her truck, having Alice kidnap her) as endearing.

holdingoutforjacob --

Everything. It’s Edward Cullen for god’s sake, why wouldn’t you want to forgive him? Those eyes . . . ZOMG!!

Was that the answer you wanted? I am actually surprised that this question would come up, because I can truthfully say that no person, Edward or otherwise can affect how I feel, or what I would excuse because it is that person. My mind just doesn’t work that way, if someone does something and I feel it is despicable, mean or otherwise I won’t change my opinion because oh its this person, how can I feel this way? One of my firm believes is that everyone is equal and one of pet peeves is unfairness, and Edward is not an exception. The things he does just rub me off in a good way. If they didn't, I properly would be arguing your side but really, I can see for myself that he genuinely a good person, that he means no harm and he is completely altruistic even in times when someone other than him would have acted like a completely nightmare.

[Jazz Girl]

just wondering would any of you honestly want edward cullen to stalk you ... if he was ugly. if edward was not a sparkly pixie would you be okay with him stalking you. also why is it okay for him to take the engine out of her car? now im not bashing but please answer the questions honestly

First, Edward is a vampire. And regardless of how human he can be, he is not a part of human society. The obsessive, vampire stalker in him is really just that, nothing. However, he regarded himself as Bella’s angel, he wanted to protect her and so he did, only hiding in the shadows . . . Add to that, Bella is in love with him, so him protecting her was more flattering than creepy to her and me. For me, if it was truly someone as genuine, and authentic as Edward is . . . Well not even that, it would be down right creepy if it was a human person *shudder* . . . If it was a human boy, the boy definitely has problems and he should be checked out as soon as possible. It really is completely and distinctly different. But I’d properly call 911 and move out of the country. Seriously, I have deathly fears of such things.

About the truck . . . I don’t really have much problems with it, I DO think he was out of line but to me I like to consider first and foremost the intent and motives. If for instance someone was motivated by something altruistic and he acted by those motivations only to mess up, it would properly be frustrating but really understandable and even endearing. If for another instance, Edward did it for the sake of wanting to control Bella, where his intent was completely despicable then I would be surprised that Bella stayed with him. If someone did something such as, he will do it again. There are no guarantees, but of coarse that wasn’t Edward’s intent or motivation (I.e to control Bella) so I tend to regard those things (dismantling her truck, having Alice kidnap her) as endearing.

holdingoutforjacob --

Everything. It’s Edward Cullen for god’s sake, why wouldn’t you want to forgive him? Those eyes . . . ZOMG!!

Was that the answer you wanted? I am actually surprised that this question would come up, because I can truthfully say that no person, Edward or otherwise can affect how I feel, or what I would excuse because it is that person. My mind just doesn’t work that way, if someone does something and I feel it is despicable, mean or otherwise I won’t change my opinion because oh its this person, how can I feel this way? One of my firm believes is that everyone is equal and one of pet peeves is unfairness, and Edward is not an exception. The things he does just rub me off in a good way. If they didn't, I properly would be arguing your side but really, I can see for myself that he genuinely a good person, that he means no harm and he is completely altruistic even in times when someone other than him would have acted like a completely nightmare.

Amethyst~ You took the words right out of my...errr...fingers. Truly, on both counts.

I think I would only add this in response to the question about how much I forgive because it's Edward. It's isn't a matter of Edward being Edward, Jacob being Jacob, Bella being Bella or Mike Newton being Mike Newton. It is a matter of the thoughts, feelings, intentions, motivations and actions of a character all coming together to form that character, who that character is. All characters are good and bad, dark and light, selfless and selfish, loving and hateful. It is a matter of the balance and how those things come together to create the characters we love and the ones we love to hate. It's taking it all into account, regardless of whether or not I root for that character or another. So, no, I don't forgive anything just because it is Edward or Jacob or Bella or Mike. I look at the actions, the motivations, the outcome and how whatever it is effects the other characters around them.

[ringswraith]

I don't think anyone here has said that Edward's disabling of Bella's truck was "okay."

Had it been "okay," Bella would have turned to Edward and said "All right. Meet me upstairs?" and be done with it.

But she didn't do that. She was upset with him, even considered shutting him out that night- but she relented. She understood his motivations behind the act; she just needed to make him understand hers. Which means that the event wasn't "okay" by any standard. Some of us just feel that, given the current situation, it was a forgivable act.