Edward and Bella #1

Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Knives » Sat May 09, 2009 12:20 am

For future reference, I have yet to actually open up the, "Bella and Edward aren't actually in love" can of worms. See my above post. That happens to be my opinion, but I'm not prepared to bring that debate up at this particular moment.

Also, I'm a he ^_^
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sat May 09, 2009 12:32 am

Jazz Girl Sometimes I feel like you refuse to see the point I am making. However, I do apologize for offending you, if I did. I didn't mean to imply that you could only see one SIDE of an argument, only that sometimes I feel that you put more emphasis on different things than I would. I'm sure I do the same.

I said you neglected to consider that it's not just like Edward realized from conversation A to conversation B that he was wrong, there was a chain of events.

I think you sort of misunderstood my post. First of all, I don't blame anyone at all for the love triangle. Secondly, I am not talking about Bella not being able to compromise with Edward to get what she wants. She's very capable of doing that. I was talking about just listening to him. When he begins to talk about how he thinks he's a monster or whatever, she always just says stuff like "that's not true" or when he talks about how easily he could lose control and hurt her she says stuff like "you wouldn't do that" which does really very little to actually address these fears and issues, simply sweeps them away. I'm just saying that if they had more open communication about Edward's flaws, they could maybe deal with their obstacles in a less dramatic and traumatic fashion.

When I spoke of the boundaries, I wasn't speaking of her boundaries with Jacob, or that she needed them to get along so much as she made it very clear that she didn't want to choose sides and she spent plenty of time whining about how they couldn't get along, I would think it would have been more important to her. I still think she fights mainly for things that will benefit her and spends very little time actually trying to make sure everyone is happy. And I am allowed to think that.

Knives, I am SO sorry!!!!!! :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

Ringswraith - see my above point. Telling Edward his fears are "ridiculous" does nothing to soothe them. How would you like it if I told you your fear of heights was ridiculous?? (NOTE: I have no idea if you have a fear of heights, I just went with something common.) By refusing to acknowledge his flaws as such, she doesn't allow them to accept them and move on and work around them.

Yes, I thought someone would bring up the hissy fit at the beach. It was an attempt... but an attempt to get them to stop talking that way about each other TO her. Not to stop being disrespectful to each other. Again, she is focusing on her comfort rather than the root of the problem.

I feel as though you all are telling me how wrong my opinion is. It's just how the story comes off to me. I just thought I'd comment on something I find interesting.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby diane771 » Sat May 09, 2009 12:36 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:I actually happen to agree with Knives here, although I don't agree with her thesis that they don't love each other. I think they are very much in love, they just don't know how to handle themselves, and they will learn.

Jazz Girl, I think you have a tendency to really see only what you want to see. Where you see only growth between the first and second conversations about Bella's visiting rights, I see what went down in between. Things that were absolutely unacceptable IN MY OPINION. I also feel like if they didn't have these issues, the entire unfortunate incident wouldn't have happened.

Something that Knives brought up that I thought was VERY interesting was that Edward does try to talk to Bella more about things than she does with him. He is unafraid of making her uncomfortable or angry. But Bella is unwilling to talk about the things he needs to talk about, such as his self-loathing issues and his incredible fear of losing her. If this type of dialogue were open and flowing, they would have had an easier time of communicating about the Jacob issue.

Bella wants everyone to all be happy, but she wants it for her comfort. Remember her magnet thing in Eclipse?? How Jacob was one pole and Edward the other and they would never be able to be forced together? Well what did she do to try to make them get along?

She should have told BOTH of them that they BOTH needed to play nice or she wouldn't be around EITHER of them. She needed to tell Edward he had to apologize to Jacob and Jacob that he had to apologize to Edward. They were both being horrendous little snots to each other and needed to be called to task. And she was the only one with the power to do it. But because it would have caused her to have to be uncomfortable for a little bit, or maybe take the risk of being without them until they got it together, she wouldn't do it.

Really, Edward tries. Edward tries so hard. Bella, I think, was never taught how to try.


You are so right, Bella had the power to put out the flames between Edward and Jacob, but she didn't step up to it. That hurt so many people, including herself by not doing that.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sat May 09, 2009 12:44 am

Whoa.... are we.... agreeing????
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby ringswraith » Sat May 09, 2009 12:47 am

holdingoutforjacob: I actually do have a fear of heights. And you telling me it's "ridiculous" does nothing. I know it's ridiculous. But fear is at times illogical. In Bella's case, she was simply telling Edward not to overreact (as he's prone to doing) to what happened- she's alive, she's with him, that's all that matters to her. And he should be happy about that.

And how does that come across as "sweeping away" the issue? I suppose if you took it from the perspective of "forget about it," it could. Personally I never took it that way. Perhaps you did? Open to interpretation. (Sorry, typing as I think here, so you're getting pretty much a stream of consciousness post.) Personally, it could have been any number of things. Maybe Bella just didn't know how to comfort someone as old as Edward. :)

And the "hissy fit" at the beach, as well as the Switzerland conversation, to me were not attempts by Bella to get both men to stop talking like that to her. They were attempts for them to forget about their mythical rivalry and see the other for the person, the human, that he is. Remember she said she didn't care who was a vampire, or who was a werewolf. They were simply Edward, Jacob, and Bella- and she felt that they should look at things the same way.

You could be right, we might be butting opinions here. But we can't generalize when we make an opinion, because it renders that part of the opinion wrong. (I'm trying to come up with an example but thanks to my Philosophy teacher I can't think of anything that won't come out as some sort of -ist.) Well, let's just say a certain street in town is known for drug dealers. Hearing that, let's say I make the conclusion that everyone on that street is a drug dealer. That's my opinion, but does it make it right? No, it doesn't.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby AnnetteandEdward » Sat May 09, 2009 12:51 am

Knives wrote:Except it wasn't nothing; someone had just made a serious attempt to turn Bella into a Happy Meal. Yes, that attempt was the result of said person falling off the undead wagon, but it was still a serious attempt. As I said before, Bella is the distant partner; she regularly engages in denial, distancing, or self-deprecation rather than actually deal with problems, and Edward only has her cues to go on. Yes, Edward chooses to make the decision for Bella, but at that point Bella had a track record for really bad decisions, not the least of which was the all-too-recent one to meet James by herself instead of, oh, I dunno, doing something that remotely involved intelligence or self-preservation (like involving the Cullens). If I were in a relationship with someone with that kind of record (which, thankfully, I am not - my fiancee is highly intelligent and greatly enjoys the privelage of living), I'd want to make her decisions for her too.


I just wanted to make sure that I understood you on this point - You believe that Edward is taking responsible for Bella's life because Bella isn't capable of it? Or that she want to make the calls? Or that she (knowing Edward) is allowing him too?
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Knives » Sat May 09, 2009 12:56 am

I believe the Edward sees Bella as incapable of caring for her own safety. Frankly, so do I - in my opinion, Bella's an idiot, lacking even the common sense to not walk down a dark alley in a strange city at night (I defy you - defy you - to find a SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH over the age of four who doesn't know not to do that). So Edward, wanting to watch out for her safety, tries making decisions for her to safeguard it.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sat May 09, 2009 1:00 am

ringswraith wrote:holdingoutforjacob: I actually do have a fear of heights. And you telling me it's "ridiculous" does nothing. I know it's ridiculous. But fear is at times illogical. In Bella's case, she was simply telling Edward not to overreact (as he's prone to doing) to what happened- she's alive, she's with him, that's all that matters to her. And he should be happy about that.


How ironic!!! But Edward's fears were not illogical or unreasonable. They were real. And they were not just fears they were insecurities. I think that Bella can't accept that he HAS flaws she sees him as so perfect. I never said she did that consciously.

ringswraith wrote:And how does that come across as "sweeping away" the issue? I suppose if you took it from the perspective of "forget about it," it could. Personally I never took it that way. Perhaps you did? Open to interpretation. (Sorry, typing as I think here, so you're getting pretty much a stream of consciousness post.) Personally, it could have been any number of things. Maybe Bella just didn't know how to comfort someone as old as Edward. :)


I don't mind the stream of consciousness, it makes it nice and easy to follow your train of thought! I don't think she was TRYING to minimize it, but those types of comments don't deal with the issue do they??

ringswraith wrote:And the "hissy fit" at the beach, as well as the Switzerland conversation, to me were not attempts by Bella to get both men to stop talking like that to her. They were attempts for them to forget about their mythical rivalry and see the other for the person, the human, that he is. Remember she said she didn't care who was a vampire, or who was a werewolf. They were simply Edward, Jacob, and Bella- and she felt that they should look at things the same way.


For the record, I really like this scene. I was kinda thinking "finally she grew a pair!!!" but Bella needed to be firmer with both these punks!!! Honestly, the best time to do this would have been when they were all three together, so they would know this applied to their behavior towards each other as well. Plus I always saw her saying that SHE didn't care meant that they weren't to address each other like that.

Also, I don't particularly remember Edward getting a talk about being disrespectful to Jacob. I remember her trying (sort of) to talk Edward into "allowing" her to go to La Push (just typing that made my teeth clench) and in doing so saying that Jacob was trustworthy etc. But she never did, to my knowledge, address Edward's "racism" towards wolves.

ringswraith wrote:You could be right, we might be butting opinions here. But we can't generalize when we make an opinion, because it renders that part of the opinion wrong. (I'm trying to come up with an example but thanks to my Philosophy teacher I can't think of anything that won't come out as some sort of -ist.) Well, let's just say a certain street in town is known for drug dealers. Hearing that, let's say I make the conclusion that everyone on that street is a drug dealer. That's my opinion, but does it make it right? No, it doesn't.


I don't understand. How did I do that???

Knives - I totally get where you're coming from there. While I don't think it excuses Edward's actions, it does make them understandable.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby ringswraith » Sat May 09, 2009 1:05 am

HOFJ: Do you mind if I call you that, by the way? :oops:

Guess I'm nitpicking. At this point all I can remember is you saying that Bella never discussed Edward's self-loathing, when she did (and I brought up examples). I guess what I'm trying to say is we need to be more specific and less general in our conclusions. :)

At this point, I'm happy to agree to disagree. And yes, definitely ironic on the acrophobia comment. :lol:
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby AnnetteandEdward » Sat May 09, 2009 1:11 am

Knives wrote:I believe the Edward sees Bella as incapable of caring for her own safety. Frankly, so do I - in my opinion, Bella's an idiot, lacking even the common sense to not walk down a dark alley in a strange city at night (I defy you - defy you - to find a SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH over the age of four who doesn't know not to do that). So Edward, wanting to watch out for her safety, tries making decisions for her to safeguard it.


I do try to keep my opinion of Bella to myself - I just wanted to know if you thought that what Edward was doing was what he should be doing to protect his love from harm or was he being overbearing because he was being Edward? Or if Bella could feel his protection and was using it to keep herself safe - not about the alley - but with James? About the dark alley well we all know that Bella is directionally challenged to say the least. Best I can give her.
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