Contradictions in the Guide

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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Jazz Girl » Fri May 27, 2011 10:28 am

smitten_by_twilight wrote:I saw that piece too, Olorin, and since the stories were so different I just assumed that Alice was incompletely informed. Although Carlisle lived there, hm. Perhaps they were secretive about their origins, and because Carlisle didn't know the truth, neither did Edward or Alice? Until the end of New Moon, when Edward might have gotten it from Marcus, who would never have forgotten his mate?

As you can see, I'll go pretty far to try to make sense out of what SM writes.

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These were my thoughts exactly. Edward, other than being overwhelmed, also seemed surprised by a great deal while in Volterra. It seemed to me that, maybe, the things he was hearing and seeing through others were not measuring up. That made the end of the discussion with Jane at the end of Eclipse, Edward's general air and attitude during it, make a lot of sense to me. Carlisle's was reacting based upon what he was shown or told during his time with the Volturi. But, Edward knew more, knew a more complete version. And so, he was reacting based on what that complete reality is, rather than Carlisle's faith in his friends.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Sat May 28, 2011 8:32 pm

On April 17th I wrote:Edward also comments on this to Bella in Eclipse, something along the lines of Emily's Sam, not Sam's Emily, because Sam has no free will in the matter. Implying that Sam cannot reject Emily, but Emily could reject Sam, which is also the implication when (in the Guide) Sam goes to Emily and begs her to tell him to kill himself. Jeakat, I agree with you about the love and free will issue, so that the imprintee are in love but that the werewolves really aren't ... and I am deeply disturbed by this. I'm gonna have to mull this one over.


It's been a month and I don't like it any better. I think that SM was trying to merge wolves and humans, and going with the premise that wolves lack free will in their choice of a partner. Without debating free will in wolves (I don't know!), I think that the premise makes it virtually impossible to merge the two. I think that there is an aspect of even normal, real-world love that feels like it is beyond free will, because it is so very hard to just stop loving someone ... but it really isn't beyond free will, you can gradually force yourself to stop hurting over someone, even if you left them ... say, because they were bad for you :roll: like some magical people we know. So, rather than believe that all the wolves are actually lacking their free will in these supposedly loving relationships, I'm going to choose to disbelieve that imprinting removes free will. I am aware that I am defying canon and I don't like it, but that's where I'm at right now.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby suzzeeQ » Sun May 29, 2011 7:35 pm

I agree that the wolves lack any sort of free will when it comes to imprinting. It even says so in the guide:


    No matter the age or living conditions of the human, the werewolf automatically becomes whatever the human wants him to be at the loss of his personal free will.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:54 am

Thanks, suzzeeQ! I reread again and just finished BD, and was reading the Jacob and second Bella section carefully with this whole imprinting thing in mind. I see I will have to change my mind again - SM not only clearly meant imprinting to be a removal of free will that magically resolves his just-not-happenin' love with Bella, but it was also a major plot point. Without imprinting Jacob might not have re-identified himself as an Alpha, the wolves might have attacked the house, Jacob might not have given permission for the vampiric transformation, they definitely would have moved, Irina might not have found them, or under different circumstances, and if the Volturi came for them the wolves would not have been around. Most of the book would be hugely different, still possible and realistic, but less dramatic and ultimately less happy for everyone.

So ... now I'm left with believing in imprinting, and being distressed that all these wolves, despite their happiness in their unfree state, had their free will taken away. And if anyone's actually reading all this angst, I'm sorry if I bored you, and happy if I entertained you. Thanks for not razzing me!

BTW, would it be cool to have a wolf smilie? Any techie geniuses out there who think it would be neat?
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby suzzeeQ » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:04 am

The books would be really different w/out imprinting, but I still don't like it. IMO, imprinting is just a cop out.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Tornado » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:55 am

I just wanted to comment a little on the Freaky Fred issue:

The chances of Victoria finding such a useful gift this way are simply astronomical, like winning the lottery exactly when she needs it. I find that much luck hard to believe.


That is certainly true, but it's comparable to Edward finding Bella, the perfect shield, but, as Eleazar put it, not realising what he had. SM has said that vampires are drawn to exceptional humans, so if Fred's talent was not instantly in play (maybe he watched Fred for a while before Fred realised he was there) Riley may have sensed there was something special about him without realising it was something so repellent until after the transformation. And there can certainly be luck involved in all this. There is in life in general. Some people buy a lottery ticket every week for twenty years and never win. Some buy one and win immediately. It happens.

Also, Victoria never went near her newborns, so although Riley may have told him Fred was talented, she may have never realised how much, especially if Riley couldn't remember him clearly most of the time himself. Also, she couldn't risk becoming involved with the newborns, even to move a talented one, for risk of Alice seeing what she was doing. These combined factors can account for her leaving Fred with the rest of them. She may have also assumed that Fred's talent would be enough to keep him safe, which turned out to be the case.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Tornado » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:38 am

Also, in relation to Jane not seeing Carlisle, if he was only there for two decades, as the guide says, it's possible she was out with punishing expiditions all that time. Perhaps it was a particularly bad time for unruly vampires. It's at least conceivable that she could have been away doing her work. I can imagine it would have been quite time consuming to track down some vampires, even with Demetri's talent, especially if they had never encountered that particular vampire before.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby suzzeeQ » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:14 am

In New Moon on p. 367 it states that Harry Clearwater had a heart attack that morning (when Bella jumped off the cliff). However, in the guide on p. 336 it states that Leah first phased and Harry had his heart attack at night.
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