Contradictions in the Guide

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Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Openhome » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:08 pm

Okay, we knew it would happen...
There are a few contradictions that people have already pointed out in the Illustrated Guide.

Did you find some? Post them here, but please be nice about it.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Jazz Girl » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:05 am

There were two major contradictions that I found in my readings.

1) Vampire Vengence~ The endlessness of a vampire's sense of vengence, particularly in response to the death of a mate is said to be unrivalled. Specifically, there is a quote that says, "ensuring that their drive for vengence would never fade." (p269) However, specifically looking at Marcus and his relationship with Aro & Caius, there is a time when Marcus essentially gives up on that idea and it seems to happen rather quickly, which would contradict the argument that the drive for revenge in the death of a mate is one of their strongest instincts. Specifically, in Marcus' bio, it states, "once he'd given up hope of vengence" in Didyme's death. Aro utilized Heidi's power to bind Marcus more closely to he and Caius, but it also says that Heidi's power is useless in breaking apart romantic love or bonded mates. So, it stands to reason that she also would not be able to lesson his need for revenge over the loss of that mate.

2) Vampires listed with "no quantifiable supernatural power"; Specifically, I look at Carlisle. But, there is also an argument for Laurent and Siobhan as well. Listed specifically in the section on supernatural powers, it gives the example of, "a human with a deep value for human life becoming a vampire with the strentgh to avoid human blood." I've made the argument before that I thought there was at least some underlying basis for Carlisle's ability not only to resist, but essentially to surround himself with human blood, be in direct contact with it, and never be tempted (yes, I know he feels the temptation, the burn, but the point is there). Yet, he is listed as having no supernatural power. In previous discussions on the Carlisle thread, it has been said that this being a supernatural power would somehow lesson his sacrifice or cheapen it in some way. I disagree whole-heartedly with that. Having so much compassion that it follows you through the transformation process and is enhanced into a vampiric strength is, I think a remarkable thing.
But also, there are others. Laurent, it is said in his bio, has an innate ability, even as a human, to identify and seek out the most powerful in a room, and to ingratiate himself to them. Might this not be a supernatural gift similar to Eleazar's or Heidi's or even Marcus'?
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby alphanubilus » Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:30 pm

The only major contradiction that I've seen, is on page 154...
Aro's date of birth is somewhere around 1300 BCE
His date of transforamtion is somewhere around 1260 BCE of which would make him close to being in his 40's. However, his bio states that he was transformed in his mid-twenties. The correct date for transformation then should have been around 1275 BCE.

Another factual error exists with the "Children of the Moon". Meyer's references that the Children of the Moon resemble traditional werewolves of myth. In reality werewolves of myth, excluding Hollywood fabricated lore, by tradition transformed into large wolves, just like the Quiluete Werewolves. In fact, it isn't until the rise of Hollywood productions that you get the "gestalt" or hybrid Were-wolf. In all legends and lore, a werewolf is simply somebody who has the ability, whether forced upon them, or voluntarily takes the form of the wolf. A voluntary werewolf would be like that of Bisclaveret, while unvoluntary would be something like the Ossory werewolves of whom were cursed by St. Patrick/ Nautilis. While this is just a minor gripe, it is still an error in regards to other mythology.


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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Jeakat » Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:24 pm

I've found a couple, but I can only remember one.

Both Sam and Leah are listed as being born in 1986. Sam is in the year above Leah at High School, but that can be explained by Bella saying in NM that Leah was also a senior, but a year older. So Leah was obviously either held back at some point, or started school a year later than normal.

But, in Twilight, when Bella asks Jacob about Sam, Jacob tells her that he's twenty. Bella was 17 at the time, and she was born in 1987, so if Sam being born in 1986 is correct, then he must have been either 18 or just turned 19 at the time.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:00 am

Authors, like people generally, have strong and less strong areas, and I think it has been previously observed that timelines are a less-strong area for SM. Things I have noticed so far (working hard, but only about 2/3s thru):

The Guide carries over something I noticed looking at the Lexicon's timeline: Jasper was only with Maria about 68 years, although he tells Bella in Eclipse that it was almost a century. While I'm sure it felt that long, especially once the depression struck, with vampire recall he should be able to tell her it was 68 years, 2 months, 13 days, and 76 minutes. And why would he lie?

One of the Denali sisters' bios (sorry, book is upstairs) says that they met up with Carmen and Eleazar about a hundred years after perfecting their self-control. Another sister's bio says it was a few hundred years after perfecting their self-control. I'm pretty sure I'm remembering this right.

While the delay in publication was distressing, I'm happy to see that they used the time to do some good copy editing ;)

Jazz Girl wrote:

1) Vampire Vengence~ The endlessness of a vampire's sense of vengence, particularly in response to the death of a mate is said to be unrivalled. Specifically, there is a quote that says, "ensuring that their drive for vengence would never fade." (p269) However, specifically looking at Marcus and his relationship with Aro & Caius, there is a time when Marcus essentially gives up on that idea and it seems to happen rather quickly, which would contradict the argument that the drive for revenge in the death of a mate is one of their strongest instincts. Specifically, in Marcus' bio, it states, "once he'd given up hope of vengence" in Didyme's death. Aro utilized Heidi's power to bind Marcus more closely to he and Caius, but it also says that Heidi's power is useless in breaking apart romantic love or bonded mates. So, it stands to reason that she also would not be able to lesson his need for revenge over the loss of that mate.

2) Vampires listed with "no quantifiable supernatural power"; Specifically, I look at Carlisle. But, there is also an argument for Laurent and Siobhan as well. Listed specifically in the section on supernatural powers, it gives the example of, "a human with a deep value for human life becoming a vampire with the strentgh to avoid human blood." I've made the argument before that I thought there was at least some underlying basis for Carlisle's ability not only to resist, but essentially to surround himself with human blood, be in direct contact with it, and never be tempted (yes, I know he feels the temptation, the burn, but the point is there). Yet, he is listed as having no supernatural power.


Jazz, I think that was Chelsea, not Heidi - Heidi's power is allurement. I actually thought it was a tolerable argument for Marcus' current total apathy - his initial fury and desire for vengence was frustrated by his inability to find the guilty party (and I'm sure Aro provided plenty of misdirection), and rather than lose him to a quest for vengence or suicidal behavior, Aro binds him tighter to the family - not eliminating the bond to his destroyed mate, but strengthening the bond to the coven as a whole, to the point where he cannot choose to leave. Hence, Marcus' virtually eternal apathy. I also would be surprised if Aro didn't get that other vampire, the one who keeps the wives content, to lay some contentness on Marcus, to help suppress the desire for vengence.

"No quantifiable supernatural powers -" Supernatural powers exist on a continuum, like hair color. The difference between having a power and not having one can be as obvious or subtle as the difference between brunette and blond hair - I'm sure we've all known people who are called brunette by some people and blond by others. Edward has an obvious power - most vampires can't read minds. Siobhan may have an unobvious one - maybe things are going her way because of other factors. In Carlisle's case, it seems that most vampires can learn to avoid human blood, and we even know of one other who has never consumed human blood (Rosalie - not the most compassionate person :roll: ). Is it a power that he has stronger control over his appetite than other newborns? Maybe - or maybe not. It didn't seem to be for Bella.

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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby corona » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:03 pm

Once the venom coating the vampire’s teeth enters the bloodstream of a human, it moves through the human’s body, changing each cell as it passes.

And yet Bella's description says that it is the outer extremities that become fully transformed first, and that the heart is the last human organ left since it needs to continue pumping the venom throughout the body. It therefore does not change or at least does not become fully vampirized until the very end, even when injected with a massive dose of venom. Either the guide is incorrect or there are complexities still not fully explained.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:16 am

Either the guide is incorrect or there are complexities still not fully explained.


I suspect the second, especially since Bella, unusually, had that massive dose of venom straight to her heart. The transformation must not be instantaneous for each cell. Check out the thread The New Science of Twilight - remembering that there is still fantasy here, too - the heart must be magically last, as the venom would not continue to circulate through the body otherwise.

Oh and another Denali coven inconsistency - in Irina's and Kate's bios it says they became adept at vegetarianism within a few decades - in Tanya's bio it says they perfected vegetarianism after a few centuries. While "adept" and "perfect" are not exactly the same .... ;)
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby corona » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:18 am

smitten_by_twilight wrote:
Either the guide is incorrect or there are complexities still not fully explained.


I suspect the second, especially since Bella, unusually, had that massive dose of venom straight to her heart. The transformation must not be instantaneous for each cell. Check out the thread The New Science of Twilight - remembering that there is still fantasy here, too - the heart must be magically last, as the venom would not continue to circulate through the body otherwise.


Me too. I suspected that the process was actually pretty complex, and that the "vampirization" of cell structure was multi-stage, where the cells are first restored to full DNA perfection and then they are crystallized. Somehow the heart gets the restoration and healing part, but does not enter the final stage until the rest of the body had fully transformed? Just a theory, and I was pretty sure the guide was going to confirm one way or another, but it is still a mystery.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby suzzeeQ » Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:30 pm

Eclipse p.174

"Emily had her two nieces down for a visit...and Quil met Claire"

Twilight Saga Guide P.371

"Claire Young is the young cousin of Emily Young"
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Jeakat » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:41 pm

suzzeeQ wrote:Eclipse p.174

"Emily had her two nieces down for a visit...and Quil met Claire"

Twilight Saga Guide P.371

"Claire Young is the young cousin of Emily Young"


Oooh, I didn't notice this one! I breezed through reading it the first time, just desperate for information. I'm definitely going to have to go back and re-read it!
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