Contradictions in the Guide

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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby vermishelle » Sat May 07, 2011 4:06 pm

olorin wrote:I agree with everything accept Peter's transformation. What Jasper said about Peter in Eclipse was:
"Decades later, I developed a friendship with a newborn who'd remained useful and survived his first three years, against the odds."
So Jasper didn't say Peter was only 3 years old when he left Maria, just that his first years were difficult.
It only puts Peter's transformation at least 20 years after Jasper's in 1863 and at least 3 years before his defection in 1933, which actually fits the guide somehow. (the 1920s end in 1929 ;) )
So the only screw-ups in the guide here are Charlotte's date of birth and transformation, which should be 1914 and 1932, just as you said.


Well, English is not my native language, so I won't argue with you, although I honestly don't see how "survived his first three years" can mean that he is older than three years :D . But, aside from my language difficulties :oops: , there is something else: the article about Peter also states that he was three years old when he ran away with Charlotte. Quote:

"He had powerful allies in Jasper and Maria; he was in as good a position as possible for a three-year old vampire" (p.285).
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby olorin » Sat May 07, 2011 4:53 pm

Yes, I just realized that too. :oops:
It just seems strange, that Peter would bond so strongly with Jasper in only 3-4 years, with everything going on, enough to return for him. :?
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Mon May 09, 2011 3:52 am

olorin wrote:It just seems strange, that Peter would bond so strongly with Jasper in only 3-4 years, with everything going on, enough to return for him.


It would, except that that is Jasper's gift; not only the ability to feel and manipulate others' emotions, but also (maybe as a by-product) charisma. Maybe Peter is also unusual, although not necessarily gifted, in some as-yet-unknown way. And then, Jaspar let Peter and Charlotte go, instead of chasing them down, which Peter may be very grateful for.

And back to that older topic:

olorin wrote:And Edward also stayed with Carlisle for 75 years from 1931 (Edward returning from exile) to 2006 (Jasper telling his story). So the math fits.


I guess it depends on how you count. I don't count a vacation of a few years as not being together as a family - human children are still a part of their families when they go away to school. (Regardless of what Edward was doing on his little vacation.) So I think of Edward and Carlisle as together since 1918, which is 88 years. I guess it's not a huge discrepancy, especially compared to some others ;)
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby olorin » Thu May 12, 2011 9:28 am

smitten_by_twilight wrote:Maybe Peter is also unusual

Well, Jasper called him unusually civilized. But I'm inclined to call it naiv stupidity like Riley's. :roll:
I mean Peter abandoned Charlotte and returned on the off chance, that Jasper might hesitate again from killing him and hear him out. Especially if Maria hadn't planned on killing Jasper, but instead convinced him to kill Peter, to regain her trust. Charlotte should have never allowed Peter to return under any circumstance, and Peter could've simply sent a letter to Jasper, to explain about the peaceful north, if he was that determined to help him. That's why I thought Peter must have been around for a few decades, to gain true understanding and a deeper bond with Jasper than Maria had. Well, I guess that bond could have developed in 4 years, if both had been very open to it and spent all their time together, but Jasper was very professional and Peter should have kept his guard up at all times, to survive his first Newborn years.
But it is possible. :?

smitten_by_twilight wrote:I guess it depends on how you count. I don't count a vacation of a few years...

Actually it depends on how Jasper counted. ;) But like you said it's not a big discrepancy.
Anyway Edward didn't go on a vacation. He rejected Carlisle and his teachings completely and didn't intend to return. :bye: He murdered a 1000 times and turned into a callous monster, slowly losing his ability to care for his family. And it was that loneliness that forced him to return with misery and self-loathing, like a drug addict forcing himself to become clean, to repair his relationship with his family. And he has struggled ever since, to regain his humanity, and become that gentle and compassionate image of Carlisle, that we know. And of course that's why he was so rough and unfeeling, when Carlisle brought in Rosalie only a few months after his return. Carlisle probably transformed her, hoping to help Edward adjust back into the family. :idea:
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Sat May 14, 2011 11:34 am

I'm posting from my mobile! I love my phone:)

Olorin wrote: "Charlotte should have never allowed Peter to return under any circumstance, and Peter could've simply sent a letter to Jasper, to explain about the peaceful north, if he was that determined to help him."

Yes, I'm sure that Maria wouldn't open letters from runaway soldiers to the commander she was considering killing. As for Charlotte, it is hard to prevent a mate from doing what they believe to be right, especially if you even partway agree. Jasper was withdrawn and depressed, but even if it were a very professional (vampire soldier) relationship, he would rely and lean on a good subordinate and develop the personal comfort that is a prelude to being able to count on someone else. I guess I'm saying that I thought SM wrote that bit pretty well.

As to my little euphemism for Edward's vigilante days, my impression was shaded slightly differently than your post, although as I don't have my books with me, I can't quote. But you are, of course, correct that his killing spree endangered his relationship with Carlisle and Esme, increased his self-loathing, and made the next few decades even more difficult for him, and that it probably contributed to his harsh comments about Rosalie.

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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby olorin » Sun May 15, 2011 7:30 am

smitten_by_twilight wrote:Yes, I'm sure that Maria wouldn't open letters from runaway soldiers to the commander she was considering killing.

I'm sorry. :oops: I was talking nonsense about the letter. Maria's army was constantly on the move, just like Victoria's, so Peter needed to track them down himself. And no human or animal would have gotten anywhere close to the army, to deliver any messages, without risking exposure to both humans or Maria. I only meant that Peter should have been able to deliver a message to Jasper vampire style, without tipping Maria off or putting himself in danger. (like Alice leaving a message for Bella about J.Jenks in BD)
I'm sorry, but this story just feels off to me, or I'm just lacking imagination. :D (perhaps Peter observed something from a safe distance, that convinced him to trust Jasper and come closer)
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby Openhome » Mon May 16, 2011 10:40 pm

olorin wrote:
smitten_by_twilight wrote:Yes, I'm sure that Maria wouldn't open letters from runaway soldiers to the commander she was considering killing.

I'm sorry. :oops: I was talking nonsense about the letter. Maria's army was constantly on the move, just like Victoria's, so Peter needed to track them down himself. And no human or animal would have gotten anywhere close to the army, to deliver any messages, without risking exposure to both humans or Maria. I only meant that Peter should have been able to deliver a message to Jasper vampire style, without tipping Maria off or putting himself in danger. (like Alice leaving a message for Bella about J.Jenks in BD)
I'm sorry, but this story just feels off to me, or I'm just lacking imagination. :D (perhaps Peter observed something from a safe distance, that convinced him to trust Jasper and come closer)


I know what you mean. I wrote this into a fanfic, and I had to really think this scene through. I had it that Jasper was purposefully staying away from Maria for short periods because he knew she was ready to kill him. He was actually away from the others because he just ate, and he needed to get control of himself before returning. This let Peter get close to him.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby corona » Wed May 18, 2011 3:10 pm

I think you have a very good point, Olorin, in that even the smallest risk in going back would seem to be too great, considering that Peter's death would destroy Charlotte as well, which should make such a decision intolerable. His bond of friendship with Jasper, though, can never fade in emotional intensity. Their intelligence is quite capable of a cooly detatched analysis, but they sometimes have an even harder time than humans in letting something go due to their inability to grow beyond their basic nature. In other words, while a human might be able to eventually rationalize why they must stay away, Peter could not.

Peter and Charlotte's attitude seem to be more netural in the BD finale, when they both agree to witness for the Cullens, but remain on the fence as to whether they will actually engage in battle.

A more extreme example of risk-taking would be Benjamin, who only has only known the Cullens for a few days but is ready to fight and die for them, bringing his mate Tia along with him. :roll:

In my opinion, demonstrating convincing motivations for the Cullen allies in BD part 2 is going to be one of the biggest challenges of that movie.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby olorin » Wed May 18, 2011 11:25 pm

I love your idea, Openhome, that Peter would approach Jasper after a hunt, when he was alone and least willing to kill again or return to the army. :idea:

And I see what you mean, corona. I'm very interested in the Amazons' motivations. They were the only ones who didn't declare themselfs in BD ch 34. But it was simply assumed that they would fight with the Cullens, and Zafrina would protect Bella. And with their lifestyle I don't see why they would care much about the Volturi corruption, or the refinement of the Cullens and their compassion for humans, enough to sacrifice themselfs.

I found another contradiction in the guide about Caius' story. Alice said in NM ch 19, that the coven was originally just Aro, Caius and Marcus, and that they were joined by two females over time. Yet the guide says, that Caius found Athenodora first, and then they formed their coven of 6 quickly within decades of Aro's transformation.
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Re: Contradictions in the Guide

Postby smitten_by_twilight » Thu May 26, 2011 12:28 pm

Been away for nearly 2 weeks (dealing with real life), and happy to return to my addiction, like diving into a cool, mossy forest ....

I saw that piece too, Olorin, and since the stories were so different I just assumed that Alice was incompletely informed. Although Carlisle lived there, hm. Perhaps they were secretive about their origins, and because Carlisle didn't know the truth, neither did Edward or Alice? Until the end of New Moon, when Edward might have gotten it from Marcus, who would never have forgotten his mate?

As you can see, I'll go pretty far to try to make sense out of what SM writes.

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