The Third Table

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Re: The Third Table

Postby Alcyone » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:34 pm

...No. As devious and cruel and sadistic as he may be, he ain't worth it. No man is.
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Re: The Third Table

Postby MRK » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:44 pm

Alcyone wrote:...No. As devious and cruel and sadistic as he may be, he ain't worth it. No man is.


OK...so , just curious...What about immortality would you not want? Because when you said, "worth it" I took that to mean that you would rather not be immortal. (I could be wrong about that)
If there were such a thing...why would you choose to remain human?


Sorry I'm editing...another question...if it weren't someone giving you the choice and you could just choose to be immortal on your own...would that alter your decision
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Re: The Third Table

Postby amontilado » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:52 pm

While in the context of a book, I was "Happy" to see Bella choose immortality with Edward, really I would prefer her to have an option that involved her being happy & human. As it was a given in the Twilight world that she would only be happy with Edward as an immortal, it was a satisfactory outcome...but in my heart staying human with Jacob would have been preferable. I know if she were my daughter, that is the choice I would prefer for her...but of course we don't get to make those sorts of choices for anybody else.
I think that being immortal [and no longer human] would be a lot less fun than it sounds. I would prefer my immortality to be in the company of other immortals...like in heaven, after my human life has run its natural course [However long that might be & I hope it will be reasonably long!]
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Re: The Third Table

Postby bac » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:50 pm

Monti-That was a really good way of saying that.

I have a thought from the books that I want to share. It is just my opinion/belief, so please don't take it as anything other than that, purely my view.

When I finished Eclipse I cried. I wasn't sad, just emotional.

Bella wanted to be with Edward forever. She wanted to have that eternity with him, but the only way she could was to become a vampire. She would also love to be a parent and have a family and grow old and all of that. She was sad to give up one thing for the other.

One of my beliefs is that our spouse and children can be bound to us forever. So, our relationships do not die when we physically die. When we die our spirits separate from our bodies, but later they will be reunited in an immortal body. So, we will have immortality, but we will also get to be immortal with our families.

Bella so desired this. She wanted it. And when I finished Eclipse I realized that I had what she wanted. I have a husband and 2 children that I believe will be with me forever. Sure we may physically die at different times, but eventually we will all be together again to live forever. I have what Bella wanted and I am grateful to be able to have that belief.

So going back to what Monti said, I would not want to be immortal just to be immortal. But being able to be immortal with your family and those you love is something that I do want.
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Re: The Third Table

Postby una » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:24 pm

bac wrote:So going back to what Monti said, I would not want to be immortal just to be immortal. But being able to be immortal with your family and those you love is something that I do want.


I agree completely, well stated Bac. I believe that we are all immortal in the eyes of those that love us whether they be family, friends, or people who's lives we have touched. This is why when Rosalie votes no and then later explains her reasoning, I truly bonded with and understood Rosalie. She felt that Bella truly did have everything, family and immortality without having the restrictions they do. However, to Bella there was no price to great for her to pay if it meant she and Edward would be together forever.

Another thought I had; if Carlisle is wrong and Edward is damned, and Bella lived out her human life, there would be no immortality for her and him in the afterlife. So in some ways, Bella had to give up her humanity/mortal life in order for an eternity with Edward. Maybe this is why she felt giving up children and such was worth a price, to her it was the only guarantee for her forever with her love?
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Re: The Third Table

Postby December » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:14 pm

It's a really interesting question, isn't it, why Stephenie decided to take her story in the direction she did and make Bella immortal? I mean, think about it: we've all been in this fandom so long we've come to take it for granted that Edward and Bella had no other choice. That realistically the only way for them to stay together, not just for eternity but even for the rest of Bella's human life, was for her to become a vampire. That's basically the whole point of NM and EC, isn't it?: to make clear to us that they were totally boxed in. Bella wasn't choosing immortality, per se, but she was choosing Edward -- and she couldn't have one without the other.

But let's not forget: Stephenie built that box. She's the one who stipulated that their dilemma couldn't solved another way. That Edward couldn't become human again for Bella instead. That immortality would be the only way forward for them. And I have to say, I keep asking myself WHY?

Why, why, why?

Before BD was published, I thought I understood the answer. It seemed like this was a deliberate decision to cut them off from every avenue of escape, so that the only way forward for them was through the flames. In EC we saw Bella acknowledge -- and mourn for -- the appalling sacrifices she was making to be with Edward. Indeed, we the readers were made to see those sacrifices more clearly as well: to really recognize that being a vampire isn't all glitter and roses and exciting superpowers, but entails pain and loss and unremitting struggle. And we saw Edward reluctantly recognize that this shadowed fate was nevertheless the right choice for Bella -- and willingly choose it with her. A bittersweet ending, in a way, but an extraordinarily romantic one: because the bitterness of the sacrifice Bella was making, the darkness of the path they were choosing (and picture for an instant what they thought they were signing on for: the moment when he has to deliberately take away Bella's life and watch her suffer unspeakably afterwards) is the starkest possible measure of HOW MUCH THESE TWO LOVE EACH OTHER. Because nothing else matters, so long as they can be together. And that darkness only makes the dawn of their eternal happiness together all the more glorious.

If that was the story you wanted to tell, letting Edward become human for Bella so they could share the joys of a long human life together would be a second-best kind of a happy ending. Deep happiness, true happiness -- a more realistic happiness maybe -- but without the sort of romantic grandeur you get by letting Bella give up everything for love.

Only...turns out that wasn't really the story Stephenie was telling after all. In the end, those aren't the choices Edward and Bella are faced with. Nor does Bella's life as a vampire turn out so very different from the human life she and Edward could have shared. Except for the glittery superpowers -- and of course the grand prize of a nearly costless immortality! So why didn't Stephenie elect to keep them both human? It's not as though she's indifferent to the moral -- and theological -- pitfalls of (earthly) immortality. Why, why, why?
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Re: The Third Table

Postby twilightmom » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:18 pm

Why immortality? An easy answer... makes for more "excitement" in the story. It's a "different" love story. Just an easy answer.

My girlfriend and discussed this issue prior to BD - Bella is begging to become immortal at every turn. And as December put it:
December wrote:we've all been in this fandom so long we've come to take it for granted that Edward and Bella had no other choice. That realistically the only way for them to stay together, not just for eternity but even for the rest of Bella's human life, was for her to become a vampire. That's basically the whole point of NM and EC, isn't it?: to make clear to us that they were totally boxed in. Bella wasn't choosing immortality, per se, but she was choosing Edward -- and she couldn't have one without the other.

We stopped and tried to look at it through 18-year-old eyes... I remember when I was 18 (it was 20 years ago, but I do remember!)... I was MADLY in love with a boy. He was my best friend, my soul-mate. I believed that there was one perfect match for each person in this world - in the universe. We had that first love innocence. We thought we would grow old together (he used to sing to me the Beatles "When I'm 64"). I view Bella's love of Edward through those eyes. (And SM has told us that their love isn't just a crush love, it's the REAL deal.) In those eyes, living forever seems like bliss. And at 18 I didn't want kids. I don't know if I would have realized the sacrifice of not having kids at that point. All I saw was him and me forever. (And into the next life, too.)

SO, is this why Bella and Edward "didn't have a choice?" Maybe. But now I look at their love from a married, mother of two's eyes, and I see a different love. I wouldn't give up my life to live forever - I love my kids, I love watching them grow. It would KILL me if they ever left this life before me. I love my husband, but come on, would I want to spend EVERY MOMENT of forever with him, umm... nope! Do I plan on spending the rest of this life and into the great unknown with him, yes... But we can go out into society and spend time with other people! (I wonder what the divorce rate is among the immortal?! :lol: )

December, you asked why not make Edward human... (I think that was your rhetorical question.) The only thing I can say about that is... It wouldn't "fit." Although SM rewrote the definition of Vampire... I don't think readers would have bought the idea of a Vampire regaining his life and becoming human. I know I wouldn't have. That would have been to "unreal" for me. I honestly thought that Bella was going to remain human before I read BD. I thought that she'd be with Edward, but as a human. Unrealistic, I know... but that is what I thought would happen. Which is why I think the only way for her to become a Vampire was to create the life and death situation.

Okay, I've said a lot here... I hope it adds to the conversation. I just kind of jumped in the middle of it!
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