Edward Cullen #4

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Re: Edward Cullen #4

Postby Kachiti » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:46 pm

ariadnee wrote:I'm not disagreeing with the forum wisdom that Edward and Bella reached a very happy ending at the end of Breaking Dawn. Do they harbor regrets about the way things turned out? No, I don't think they do. Even Edward, and he's prone to being hard on himself.

However, I do think that they would have been happier had they been able to be together forever as humans. Existence as a vegetarian vampire has its advantages, but the simple fact that all of the Cullens would rather be human is a compelling argument to me. Bella's motivations for becoming a vampire were not the super strength, speed, and senses. She wanted to be able to be with Edward, and she simply didn't believe it was possible with her as a human (until perhaps, it was too late). She was always too insecure about her ability to hold his attention as a human, and worried about her advancing age. None of us believe that Edward's love was that changeable. She was also worried about being too tasty and vulnerable, but we all know that Edward would have protected her. Ultimately, she wasn't turned because she wanted to be turned, but because she would have died a young, horrible, and unnecessary death otherwise, and it was the only way to save her from that fate.

Had it been possible for Edward to become human for her, well, that would have been a great ending for both of them, a better ending. It's too bad that in the Twilight Universe, it appears to be impossible.

Thanks for listening - Ariadnee


There have been some really good answers but I connect with yours the best.
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Re: Edward Cullen #4

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:06 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:
Esme echo wrote:Perhaps in retrospect--at the end of Breaking Dawn--Edward thought had everything . . . because he and Bella had a child together and Bella did not miss out on that experience. Earlier in the saga Edward said he would do anything to become human for Bella, but that was before he knew they had the ability to have a child together, and before he knew that Bella would be a happy vampire.

I think ariadnee and akire have raised a good question. Knowing what Edward knew at the end of Breaking Dawn, would Edward still rather have been human with Bella, or was he satisfied with their vampire existence?


Esme Echo~, what a fantastic question to ponder. "Knowing what Edward knew at the end of BD..." Well that's the key to the question, isn't it. From Edward's own mouth, we hear just how ecstaticly content he is with his life in those moments. "It isn't every day you get everything you ever wanted, along with everything you never thought to ask for." Ness' birth and Bella's transformation changed everything for Edward. If Ness had not been born, or if Bella had survived her birth human, it would be a completely different story. I think , in that case, than Edward would still long for Bella to stay human. And, his deepest desire would be for him to be human with her.

But, once Edward's hand is forced and he has to change her to save her life, it frees him from all of his fears and hang ups and self hatred. I truly believe that once Bella became a vampire, Edward couldn't hate himself for being a vampire any more. Hating himself for being a vampire would mean that he had to hate a part of Bella, as well. And that was never going to happen. So, Edward truly does find a reason to finally let go of the hatred he has for his nature and just revel in being the very fortunate man he is.


I couldn't agree more, but I wanted to add to that. I think that it helps a lot that Bella doesn't have to give up any of the pinnacles of her human existence, such as Charlie or Jacob. I think he was not concerned about making her a vampire so much as stealing her from the human world, and in doing so, stealing it from her. She has a baby. She has her best friend. She has her love, her father, her real family, and a multitude of new friends. Her human life and more! I think this is really what absolves Edward's guilt.

Couldn't you argue, if you wished to, and I don't, but couldn't you argue Jazz Girl, that Edward would still feel at fault even though he changed her to save her life, since he was what put her life in danger in the first place, what with Nessie and all?
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Re: Edward Cullen #4

Postby navarre » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:11 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:
Esme echo wrote:Perhaps in retrospect--at the end of Breaking Dawn--Edward thought had everything . . . because he and Bella had a child together and Bella did not miss out on that experience. Earlier in the saga Edward said he would do anything to become human for Bella, but that was before he knew they had the ability to have a child together, and before he knew that Bella would be a happy vampire.

I think ariadnee and akire have raised a good question. Knowing what Edward knew at the end of Breaking Dawn, would Edward still rather have been human with Bella, or was he satisfied with their vampire existence?


Esme Echo~, what a fantastic question to ponder. "Knowing what Edward knew at the end of BD..." Well that's the key to the question, isn't it. From Edward's own mouth, we hear just how ecstaticly content he is with his life in those moments. "It isn't every day you get everything you ever wanted, along with everything you never thought to ask for." Ness' birth and Bella's transformation changed everything for Edward. If Ness had not been born, or if Bella had survived her birth human, it would be a completely different story. I think , in that case, than Edward would still long for Bella to stay human. And, his deepest desire would be for him to be human with her.

But, once Edward's hand is forced and he has to change her to save her life, it frees him from all of his fears and hang ups and self hatred. I truly believe that once Bella became a vampire, Edward couldn't hate himself for being a vampire any more. Hating himself for being a vampire would mean that he had to hate a part of Bella, as well. And that was never going to happen. So, Edward truly does find a reason to finally let go of the hatred he has for his nature and just revel in being the very fortunate man he is.


I agree. With the issue of Bella'slife no longer at stake, he had her forever. He also saw just how ecstatic she was with her new immortality. I do not believe the issue of his vampirism was a worry to him any longer. I feel he finally let go of all of his angst as a "monster" after his daughter's birth AND then Bella's transformation. He had everything and then some.
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Re: Edward Cullen #4

Postby akire » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:42 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Her human life and more!


This sentence kind of sums up my opinion well -- Bella has & is so much more herself as a vampire and like you said, HofJ, she was able to bring forward almost all the good aspects of her human life. (Let's not forget Renee).

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Couldn't you argue, if you wished to, and I don't, but couldn't you argue Jazz Girl, that Edward would still feel at fault even though he changed her to save her life, since he was what put her life in danger in the first place, what with Nessie and all?


Totally answering this question even thought it's not directed at me...I think one could certainly argue that point; and maybe Edward believes that. In some ways, though, after the initial um... act, I guess, it was kind of Bella who was putting her life in danger. Edward was ready to get rid of the danger right away.
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Re: Edward Cullen #4

Postby Jazz Girl » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:39 pm

Ariadnee~ it's good to see you! A very thought-provoking post, as always. But, I think the paramount idea is the idea of forever. When Bella is human, Edward says, with absolutely no apology, that he wants Bella to live out her human life, die a natural death and then he will follow her as soon as he possibly can. If either or both were human, there would be no forever. And, I think that, particularly after the events of New Moon, Edward is much more accepting of the idea of Bella being immortal. He's suffered her death once already. It is not an experience he at all desires to repeat. And, as Esme Echo pointed out, I too believe that Edward's assertion about his lack of soul was throughly refuted in that moment in Volterra. So, Edward's key arguments against turning Bella, ie wanting her to live a natural human life including death and taking her soul, really began to lose their power over him. Yes, it ended up that he turned her out of desperation in an attempt to save her. But, while Edward was all for giving her more time, drawing out the process a little , Edward was slowly reconciling himself to turning her of his own free will.

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Couldn't you argue, if you wished to, and I don't, but couldn't you argue Jazz Girl, that Edward would still feel at fault even though he changed her to save her life, since he was what put her life in danger in the first place, what with Nessie and all?


HoldingOutForJacob~ Once Bella survives the transformation, thrives in her new vampire life, I honestly do not believe Edward has any doubts about the way things turned out. One of the keystones of Edward's personality is evaluating things based on the outcome. For example, Edward tries to keep Bella from Jacob because of the danger he sees Jacob posing to her safety. That results in Bella getting pissed at him, and endangering herself even more in her efforts to evade Edward's imposed boundaries. So, Edward decides to back off and let Bella see Jacob. So, in the case of Edward blaming himself for Bella's transformation because he's the one who caused Bella's pregnancy (yes, that is how he did see it prebirth). The question we have to ask is what's the outcome? Bella fives birth to a healthy and beautiful daughter whom Edward loves with all that he is, just as he loves Bella. Bella is transformed into a strong, beautiful and unbreakable vampire, a form she takes to like Jasper to a hippy convention. Edward ends up with everything he has ever dreamt of having and even the things he never dared hope for. So, what's to regret or to blame himself for? As I said, I think Edward was already slowly reconciling himself to changing Bella anyway. Ness just kind of sped up the process.
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Re: Edward Cullen #4

Postby Dovrebanen » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:08 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote: Couldn't you argue, if you wished to, and I don't, but couldn't you argue Jazz Girl, that Edward would still feel at fault even though he changed her to save her life, since he was what put her life in danger in the first place, what with Nessie and all?

This question wasn't directed to me either, but I'll answer it anyway. I do think, like JazzGirl, that Edward was getting closer and closer to accepting the idea that Bella would join his world in every way. So I believe it would only be a matter of time before he resigned and changed her. He wanted her to join him, and what stopped him was his worry for her soul and his fear that she would regret it, and he didn't want to be selfish. He felt that he had been selfish enough by even being with her. But if there had been no Renesmee, I do think that maybe they would have spent a year or so in college, and made sure that Bella got as much human experiences as she possibly could. Both physical and emotionally :D That way Edward would also be more sure that she really made an informed choice about becoming a vampire.
I do think that Edward blamed himself very much for the pregnancy. But I agree with JazzGirl in that when everything turned out ok, Edward was as happy as a guy could be. He was already getting used to the idea of Bella as a vampire. I think he knew that there really was no way around it. Bella would never accept being a 70 year old lady with a 17 year old husband. And she already had Carlisle and Alice ready to help her if Edward didn't. And in some way, I think that Edward might be ok with being the one to ultimately do it. It did create a special bond between. Not sure about this one though, just a speculation. He was as we know strongly opposed to the idea for so long, so there is a good chance that I'm wrong here. But anyway, I think all his guilt was blown away once he saw his beautiful daughter and wife both healthy and well. And I also think it helped a lot that Bella was such a natural at being a vampire.
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Re: Edward Cullen #4

Postby Jazz Girl » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:02 pm

Dovrebanen wrote: I think he knew that there really was no way around it. Bella would never accept being a 70 year old lady with a 17 year old husband. And she already had Carlisle and Alice ready to help her if Edward didn't. And in some way, I think that Edward might be ok with being the one to ultimately do it. It did create a special bond between. Not sure about this one though, just a speculation. He was as we know strongly opposed to the idea for so long, so there is a good chance that I'm wrong here. But anyway, I think all his guilt was blown away once he saw his beautiful daughter and wife both healthy and well. And I also think it helped a lot that Bella was such a natural at being a vampire.[/color]


Dovrebanen~ I don't think you are wrong at all. We know how expansive Edward's mind is, how many things he contemplates at once. While we know he was outwardly completely against turning Bella, at least at first (as I said, I think his arguments quickly began to crumble after New Moon), I also think that he would have considered the various possiblities of Bella's transformation. I think the thought of Alice trying to change her would have horrified Edward. Alice says quite succinctly that she doesn't believe she has the self control to change her. Additionally, Edward would not have wanted Alice to have to shoulder the responsibility for Bella's life. That is his job. His belief that she is choosing to damn her soul might be lessening, but Edward's not going to take that chance with his favorite sister.

I also think Edward would not have wanted Carlisle to do it. While he would have no doubt of Carlisle's ability to change Bella with no problems, I think, again, he would not want that responsibility on Carlisle's shoulders, especially given that Carlisle had already changed 4 individuals. Another thought here, though I am not quite sure how likely this one is, is that Edward truly considered Carlisle his father. Would it have weirded him out, just a little, for Bella to have the same father? I know that it doesn't really work that way, but there is certainly an element of it, I think.

And, finally, I like to think that, as you said Dovrebanen, Edward also saw it as deepening the bond that they shared. I absolutely love the way Bella states it, that it is Edward's venom running through her veins, marking her as his love, his mate and his equal for the rest of forever.
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Re: Edward Cullen #4

Postby FindYourTrueCalling » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:55 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:
Dovrebanen wrote: I think he knew that there really was no way around it. Bella would never accept being a 70 year old lady with a 17 year old husband. And she already had Carlisle and Alice ready to help her if Edward didn't. And in some way, I think that Edward might be ok with being the one to ultimately do it. It did create a special bond between. Not sure about this one though, just a speculation. He was as we know strongly opposed to the idea for so long, so there is a good chance that I'm wrong here. But anyway, I think all his guilt was blown away once he saw his beautiful daughter and wife both healthy and well. And I also think it helped a lot that Bella was such a natural at being a vampire.[/color]


Dovrebanen~ I don't think you are wrong at all. We know how expansive Edward's mind is, how many things he contemplates at once. While we know he was outwardly completely against turning Bella, at least at first (as I said, I think his arguments quickly began to crumble after New Moon), I also think that he would have considered the various possiblities of Bella's transformation. I think the thought of Alice trying to change her would have horrified Edward. Alice says quite succinctly that she doesn't believe she has the self control to change her. Additionally, Edward would not have wanted Alice to have to shoulder the responsibility for Bella's life. That is his job. His belief that she is choosing to damn her soul might be lessening, but Edward's not going to take that chance with his favorite sister.

I also think Edward would not have wanted Carlisle to do it. While he would have no doubt of Carlisle's ability to change Bella with no problems, I think, again, he would not want that responsibility on Carlisle's shoulders, especially given that Carlisle had already changed 4 individuals. Another thought here, though I am not quite sure how likely this one is, is that Edward truly considered Carlisle his father. Would it have weirded him out, just a little, for Bella to have the same father? I know that it doesn't really work that way, but there is certainly an element of it, I think.

And, finally, I like to think that, as you said Dovrebanen, Edward also saw it as deepening the bond that they shared. I absolutely love the way Bella states it, that it is Edward's venom running through her veins, marking her as his love, his mate and his equal for the rest of forever.


I liked the way you put that about Edward and Carlisle. I think the same thing, that it would be wierd for Edward and Bella to share the same father (well creator), although I guess Carlisle does consider all the couples as his children in a way.

Your last paragraph made me really happy and made me go awww.. :D
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Re: Edward Cullen #4

Postby Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:11 pm

New question:

Do you think if Edward was born in Bella's time, and human but was still raised by Carlisle and Esme(who were human), he would still be the romantic, amazing, Edward we have come to know and love? Would he still be with Bella?

(I think this was asked 10 times.)
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Re: Edward Cullen #4

Postby Dovrebanen » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:14 pm

Sorry for interrupting your question, Mrs.Edward_Cullen. Just ignore me :) Just want to reply to JazzGirl.
Jazz Girl wrote:
Dovrebanen wrote: And, finally, I like to think that, as you said Dovrebanen, Edward also saw it as deepening the bond that they shared. I absolutely love the way Bella states it, that it is Edward's venom running through her veins, marking her as his love, his mate and his equal for the rest of forever. [/color]

Thanks for supporting my arguement. Good to know I'm not way off. And I agree with findyourtruecalling, that last paragraph of yours was so great. It clearly shows how much it meant to Bella to have Edward be the one. And I like to think that it meant something to him as well. Of course the whole transformation didn't play out the way they planned, since it was a matter of Edward saving her life. But when Jacob was describing it, it seemed like Edward did it with so much love. First he thought of the idea of injecting his venom directly into her heart. And I liked the way Jacob said that is seemed like he was kissing her, except for the ripping sound. And then he used his tongue to seal her wounds. He did so great in that situation, especially considering how upset he was. And I think he did all he could, in the hope of taking away as much pain as he possibly could.
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