Edward Cullen #5

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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby AnnetteandEdward » Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:16 pm

Excuse me? I find that mildly offensive. Please remember that all opinions are valid here - even ones that you don't agree with.[/quote]

:o No offensive meant - holdingoutforjacob - I was just trying to say that because Edward has refinement that very few men in this world have today that some women don't understand it. I'm from the South (in Georgia) where opening a door for a women is not a bad thing, where your date opens the car/truck door for you. Think of Gone with the Wind and you might understand where I'm coming from. Again no offensive intended...
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby Jazz Girl » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:31 pm

AnnetteandEdward~ I agree with you. One of the qualities my husband possesses that was so terribly lacking in any others was his gentlemanliness. He was always opening doors for me, carrying things for me, helping me out in a number of ways. In fact, it's actually how we met. I was taking all the boxes I used to transport all the crap I thought I had to take with me to university down to the dumpster. Mind you, they were all empty, but I had a number of them. I must have walked past 7, 8, 9 guys as I carried three in each arm and kicked the rest in front of me down the hall, down the 3 flights of stairs and to the first unit door. All of sudden, three boxes are being pulled out of my hands and two more picked up off the floor. He looked at me and said, "Do you mind if I give you a hand?" (even that, gentlemanly-didn't assume I wanted help, he OFFERED it) Another key characteristic; he did it without expecting anything in return more than a thank you. In fact it took him another 6 weeks to even speak to me again. I have actually had a man say to me, "Hey, you're one of those liberated women. I didn't think you liked that crap." Grrrr!! Honestly?? Why is it so hard to see the difference between being an overbearing as.s who assumes I can't do anything on my own and being a considerate individual who offers assistance and isn't offended if I say, "No thanks. I got it."

I am completely speaking for myself here, as a *cough* more-toward-middle-aged *cough* woman. I worry a lot about young women today; that the young men today put up such a low standard of behavior and how they treat women that young women don't realize that it is absolutely fine to have high standards and expect a guy to meet them. I think that is what is frustrating about having Edward's gentlemanliness referred to as "girly" or "feminine" by the majority female population of the Lex. It's like the very idea that a man SHOULD be a gentleman and respectful and courteous is lost. I am not saying that it is wrong to look at his behavior as a different type of male standard. But, to downright dismiss it using the feminine descriptor as derogatory just snaps my teeth together.
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby Kachiti » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:38 pm

AnnetteandEdward wrote:Excuse me? I find that mildly offensive. Please remember that all opinions are valid here - even ones that you don't agree with.

:o No offensive meant - holdingoutforjacob - I was just trying to say that because Edward has refinement that very few men in this world have today that some women don't understand it. I'm from the South (in Georgia) where opening a door for a women is not a bad thing, where your date opens the car/truck door for you. Think of Gone with the Wind and you might understand where I'm coming from. Again no offensive intended...



There are still men who do open doors for women and we don't mind. However, I grew up and live in the midwest so I'm use to this, though I wish some of the men around here did have some of Edward's manners. I had a roommate who was from New Jersey, she said it took her awhile to get use to this.
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby AnnetteandEdward » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:44 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:AnnetteandEdward~ I agree with you. One of the qualities my husband possesses that was so terribly lacking in any others was his gentlemanliness. He was always opening doors for me, carrying things for me, helping me out in a number of ways. In fact, it's actually how we met. I was taking all the boxes I used to transport all the crap I thought I had to take with me to university down to the dumpster. Mind you, they were all empty, but I had a number of them. I must have walked past 7, 8, 9 guys as I carried three in each arm and kicked the rest in front of me down the hall, down the 3 flights of stairs and to the first unit door. All of sudden, three boxes are being pulled out of my hands and two more picked up off the floor. He looked at me and said, "Do you mind if I give you a hand?" (even that, gentlemanly-didn't assume I wanted help, he OFFERED it) Another key characteristic; he did it without expecting anything in return more than a thank you. In fact it took him another 6 weeks to even speak to me again. I have actually had a man say to me, "Hey, you're one of those liberated women. I didn't think you liked that crap." Grrrr!! Honestly?? Why is it so hard to see the difference between being an overbearing as.s who assumes I can't do anything on my own and being a considerate individual who offers assistance and isn't offended if I say, "No thanks. I got it."

I am completely speaking for myself here, as a *cough* more-toward-middle-aged *cough* woman. I worry a lot about young women today; that the young men today put up such a low standard of behavior and how they treat women that young women don't realize that it is absolutely fine to have high standards and expect a guy to meet them. I think that is what is frustrating about having Edward's gentlemanliness referred to as "girly" or "feminine" by the majority female population of the Lex. It's like the very idea that a man SHOULD be a gentleman and respectful and courteous is lost. I am not saying that it is wrong to look at his behavior as a different type of male standard. But, to downright dismiss it using the feminine descriptor as derogatory just snaps my teeth together.


JazzGirl - Thanks for understanding what I was trying to say - I didn't mean to step in **it before. That's a beautiful story, he's a keeper. AGAIN, thanks for getting it.
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby AnnetteandEdward » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:01 am

Kachiti wrote:
There are still men who do open doors for women and we don't mind. However, I grew up and live in the midwest so I'm use to this, though I wish some of the men around here did have some of Edward's manners. I had a roommate who was from New Jersey, she said it took her awhile to get use to this.


Thanks for reminding me of that, not everyone grew up with it. I have to say that my high school boyfriend (married him didn't work out) made me the envy of many of the girls - he would pick me up after school each day then he would put the car in park and open the door for me. Believe me - that made him even better looking (which was hard to do in the day) to me and all the other girls. Currently my man has a huge four wheel drive truck - I can't get into without help so it forces him to open the door and put a plastic stool down for me to get in with. But before the big truck he always opened the door for me and he still puts me to the inside of him when we are walking. Sweet
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby akire » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:16 am

You know, in thinking about this more, what bothers/ed me most about the blog post JG referenced in the previous Edward thread & E&B thread was not that the author said Edward was feminine nor that the reason he was feminine was because he was written by a woman -- but rather the fact that it seemed to be presented as a negative thing. And, in some ways, we (including myself) fed into that negativity by being so insulted that he could be considered feminine.

Now, I'm not saying that the blogger is correct. I still think his initial arguments as well as the rebuttal to his critics are a bunch of baloney. I just think (hope) that stereotypical masculine/feminine qualities are becoming so blurred that it shouldn't matter.

So, I guess I want to ask... is it really so bad if Edward DOES have some "feminine" characteristics? Does that make him less... I don't know... Edwardly?
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby twilight1909 » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:23 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:I, personally, think that Edward CAN come off a little feminine at times. But maybe we should attribute this to the fact that he is being written by a FEMALE.


This is a very interesting topic to me. Unfortunately, I missed the meat of the discussion. I haven’t had much time on here again lately. Most of you pegged my initial reaction to that article on the last Edward thread, but I've been considering this and I have a few things I want to point out.

As HOFJ said, Edward was created and written by a female. He is SM's interpretation of what a perfect man is. Apparently millions of women agree with that interpretation and also find Edward to be the man of their dreams. I never once even considered Edward (descriptions and actions alike) as feminine. However, I actually do see how someone could think that, to an extent...the beautiful/angel descriptions, the most quoted love lines, the moodiness, the self-sacrificing behavior for love, etc. Most of us eat all that up with our Edward, and we think he is more of a man for those qualities rather than less of one. I have to say that he is not like a middle-aged woman—ugh—but when considering a possible feminine aspect to Edward’s character, we should remove the negative stigma of “feminine” when applied to a male. Just because certain traits have less masculinity does not mean they are girly. In a more general sense of the word, femininity simply implies a focus on emotion and relationships. Swedish culture is regarded as the most feminine, but who would say Sweden is a girly country merely because the people focus more on relationships than competitiveness? Hopefully no one. I want to point out and emphasis this distinction. Call me biased (which I am) or nitpicky for use of a proper term. Either way I’m offended by the thought of a girly Edward, whereas Edward having feminine traits…ok, I can take that. Actually, the more I think about it, I can agree with it.

Like others pointed out, society portrays men in a certain way that, ironically, does not really appeal to most women. Who wants to date a harda$$ with little consideration about your feelings? Or a man who has eyes for other women and tends to act selfishly because that's just "how guys are." I know I'm pulling from the worst male stereotypes, but let's be honest here. A lot of them are like that. Guys are programmed to be rough and tough and non-emotional; just because men in the 2000s are told to be that way does not mean Edward Cullen is any less of a man due to his respectful, gentlemanly behavior of the early 1900s. Also, the authors of that article disregarded the most important reason for Edward's “beautiful” words, actions, and thoughts. That would be Bella. The fact that he fell in love and it changed him forever. Not to mention he’s a vampire who feels much more intensely than we can even comprehend. His capacity to love far exceeds the depth of feelings that a typical human has for another. None of that changes who he is as a person though. Edward carries old-fashioned morals, ways of thinking, and articulation. We all know what his personal characteristics are, and some of them DO fall under what is universally considered as “feminine,” such as my example with feminine/masculine cultures.

Maybe some of us don’t realize that we’re attracted to feminine qualities, or we simply don’t look at it that way. Do emotional traits make a man less masculine? That’s up for individual interpretation. But how many times do us women beg our men to open up? To communicate with us? To show that they care? I daresay that every woman has felt this frustration at one time or another. Do we essentially want our men to have some feminine traits? Considering the basic connotation of the word, I think the answer is yes. (Disclaimer: of course this isn’t the case for all women. I'm speaking generally.) And what's so bad about that?
If Edward’s traits and beautiful words and selfless actions add up to some degree of femininity, then by all means… in the words of Jazz Girl, he is the woman of my dreams. :lol:
Hm. I hope no one finds this controversial.


Edit---
akire wrote:So, I guess I want to ask... is it really so bad if Edward DOES have some "feminine" characteristics? Does that make him less... I don't know... Edwardly?

THANK YOU akire!! You read my mind exactly. Our posts go hand in hand.
Last edited by twilight1909 on Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby Jazz Girl » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:42 am

Akire~ First, thanks for the link to the rebuttal. I had not read that. In my opinion, the guy just made himself look like even more of an as.s, if possible. But, that is another subject.

No, you're absolutely right!!! That is why the blog snapped my teeth together so badly. It just plain pisses me off to no end that having qualities arbitrarily defined as feminie vs masculine makes Edward any less....anything. As I said in my initial post, I hate that we are so caught up in it and that we have made one positive and one negative. But, we as a society are so caught up in it that it is inescapable. Think about it this way. Literally the first question everyone wants to know about an infant is, "Boy or girl?" Because that informs how we treat that child from the word go.

This question with Edward being feminine vs masculine is no different. I honestly wish I could say it doesn't matter. That Edward would be seen as the ideal partner for Bella regardless of whether he is seen as masculine or feminine. Believe me, I would love nothing more. But, the fact is, in our society and in our time, it does matter. Not in the sense that it alters the qualities themselves that make Edward Edward or how they play a role in his relationship with Bella or her relationship with him or the relationships themselves with any one else. But, it matters in that it alters the perspective that outsiders have. By that, I don't mean that the folks out there who are, for example team Jacob and think that Bella should have ended up with Jacob, think that for the sole reason that Edward is feminine. But, I mean that that connotation that Edward has feminine qualities lead them to have a negative view of him.
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:04 am

AnnetteandEdward wrote:Excuse me? I find that mildly offensive. Please remember that all opinions are valid here - even ones that you don't agree with.


:o No offensive meant - holdingoutforjacob - I was just trying to say that because Edward has refinement that very few men in this world have today that some women don't understand it. I'm from the South (in Georgia) where opening a door for a women is not a bad thing, where your date opens the car/truck door for you. Think of Gone with the Wind and you might understand where I'm coming from. Again no offensive intended...[/quote]

Again, this is what is offending me. You seem to think that because I don't think Edward is the manliest man ever, or I don't find him to be very masculine, I don't understand what it is to be a gentleman, or that I think it's a bad thing. And to make it an issue of where I come from seems silly.

If a boy opens a door for me I think it is very nice and sweet. But if I have to open a door every now and again, fine. I'll take it over someone dismantling my truck when they've decided I'm not within their limits for me. I think it is more important that a boy be kind and treat me as an equal in our relationship than be a "gentleman" as you call it. I think it is more important to be kind and to have fun than to make sure someone pulls my chair out for me. I define being a man as being honorable, kind, confident, and imperfect.

If you all must know why I find Edward to be rather feminine at times, it's not his actions, it's his speech. No actual boy talks like that, nor would I want them to. I would rather have a simple "I love you" that was really heartfelt than the entire page it takes Edward to say essentially the same thing.

What makes someone a man or manly or masculine is different for anyone and NO ONE'S decision of that is wrong - understood AnnetteandEdward and Jazz Girl???
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:11 am

navarre wrote:
holdingoutforjacob wrote:Excuse me? I find that mildly offensive. Please remember that all opinions are valid here - even ones that you don't agree with.


Why? What is so offensive? Basically, I'm the one who misunderstood AnnetteandEdward when I thought SHE thought I was bashing Edward. My mistake, not hers. She thought she offended me, I'm the one who reacted wrong because I misunderstood her. I apologized.
But even if she had thought differently, I would not have been upset with her - that would have been her opinion.
Lots of people have diametric views on these characters - I don't always hold the same opinion, but I'm not going to blow a fuse. The only time I get upset is when someone accuses a character of being something they are not.
Case in point: Jacob has been accused of being a pediphile and Edward an abuser. That's when I get ticked off.
Because Jacob is NOT a pediphile and Edward is NOT an abuser.
Jacob NEVER, ever viewed Ness as an object of desire or lust. He saw her as someone to protect with his life and then when she grew up....
Edward overeacted when it came to Bella, but when Bella talked with him, reasoned with him, he saw her point and backed off. Abusers are NOT capable of reasoning. Edward was capable and like Jacob - a fine man.
You have intense views of Bella - I disagree with them, but that's your view and that's fine.
Lets move on.


navarre. please, please, before you get angry with me, make sure I was talking to you ok?? Because nothing you said offended me at all, that post was directed at AnnetteandEdward, and I don't even find what she said all that offensive - see the word mildly?? I still am not angry or annoyed, I've misunderstood and fired back many times when it wasn't as bad as I thought, but we are good, and you haven't offended me in any way ok??
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