Edward and Bella #1

Re: Edward and Bella

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Mon May 11, 2009 8:59 pm

The Dark Knight wrote:
Knives wrote:Oh, at no point do I hold Edward's behavior as excusable. In many instances, Edward's behavior is emotionally damaging and harmful to their relationship. However, what I am saying is that I know where he's coming from. Thrust into this situation, Edward is faced with the (percieved) choice of acting - and potentially hurting Bella emotionally - or reacting and potentially seeing Bella die. Whether or not this perception is accurate doesn't excuse his actions - Bella is, after all, her own person and free to make stupid choices if she wishes - but it does explain them.


Edward is Edward, he is going to do what he think is right regardless. It is his nature. So holding his behavior or not as excusable is a moot point. Is he over bearing, sometimes, is he a protective, yes, does this have a truely harmful affect on Bella? Now that is the question. Any takers?


Whether or not it was harmful to Bella does not have any effect on whether it was right or it was wrong. It was wrong. It was making a decision for her that he had no right to make, without consulting her or bothering to think it through beyond his emotions and fears.

When Bella didn't see this as a huge problem, I stopped really being able to relate to her very well....
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Jazz Girl » Mon May 11, 2009 9:41 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:
Knives wrote:Oh, at no point do I hold Edward's behavior as excusable. In many instances, Edward's behavior is emotionally damaging and harmful to their relationship. However, what I am saying is that I know where he's coming from. Thrust into this situation, Edward is faced with the (percieved) choice of acting - and potentially hurting Bella emotionally - or reacting and potentially seeing Bella die. Whether or not this perception is accurate doesn't excuse his actions - Bella is, after all, her own person and free to make stupid choices if she wishes - but it does explain them.


Edward is Edward, he is going to do what he think is right regardless. It is his nature. So holding his behavior or not as excusable is a moot point. Is he over bearing, sometimes, is he a protective, yes, does this have a truely harmful affect on Bella? Now that is the question. Any takers?


Whether or not it was harmful to Bella does not have any effect on whether it was right or it was wrong. It was wrong. It was making a decision for her that he had no right to make, without consulting her or bothering to think it through beyond his emotions and fears.

When Bella didn't see this as a huge problem, I stopped really being able to relate to her very well....


But isn't a key component of determining the rightness or wrongness of a behavior whether or not it harms another person? I am not arguing that it was not wrong for Edward to leave. I am merely pointing out that most behaviors considered wrong are considered so because they caused some sort of harm. If no one is harmed, or considers themself harmed, how is the behavior wrong?

EDIT: After rereading HoFJ's post, I altered mine due to a misread of her words. My apologies HoFJ. We actually quite agree here.
Last edited by Jazz Girl on Tue May 12, 2009 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby diane771 » Mon May 11, 2009 10:53 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:
holdingoutforjacob wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:
Knives wrote:Oh, at no point do I hold Edward's behavior as excusable. In many instances, Edward's behavior is emotionally damaging and harmful to their relationship. [i]]

But isn't a key component of determining the rightness or wrongness of a behavior whether or not it harms another person? I am not arguing that it was not wrong for Edward to take apart Bella's truck (come on we all know which behavior you are referencing here). I am merely pointing out that most behaviors considered wrong are considered so because they caused some sort of harm. If no one is harmed, or considers themself harmed, how is the behavior wrong?


Since Edward is a vampire, are you setting higher standards in behavior? In any relationship, you can find things that cause pain or could be harmful, but even when Edward leaves Bella you still do not condone that. So are you saying that Edward is not perfect (we all know that) and we all know Bella herself isn''t free of her flaws either , but when you fall in love that is emotional. When you break up that is extremely emotional and damaging so why is Edward held to a different standerd than other men? Yes, he is a vampire, yes the danger is there to which Bella was fully accepting of it and what ever Edward brought to the relationship. She accepted and wanted it, yet Edward's behavior is emotionally damaging? It hurt Bella when he left, it hurts anyone who loves someone to have them leave you, so I don't see how Edward is any worse than a human, because Bella's eyes were wide open when she decided it did not matter and she wanted Edward.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Jazz Girl » Tue May 12, 2009 12:00 am

Jazz Girl wrote:But isn't a key component of determining the rightness or wrongness of a behavior whether or not it harms another person? I am not arguing that it was not wrong for Edward leave. I am merely pointing out that most behaviors considered wrong are considered so because they caused some sort of harm. If no one is harmed, or considers themself harmed, how is the behavior wrong?


Diane771~ This post was in response to HoldingOutForJacob's & Dark Knight's previous post, which were...

holdingoutforjacob wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:Edward is Edward, he is going to do what he think is right regardless. It is his nature. So holding his behavior or not as excusable is a moot point. Is he over bearing, sometimes, is he a protective, yes, does this have a truely harmful affect on Bella? Now that is the question. Any takers?


Whether or not it was harmful to Bella does not have any effect on whether it was right or it was wrong. It was wrong. It was making a decision for her that he had no right to make, without consulting her or bothering to think it through beyond his emotions and fears.

When Bella didn't see this as a huge problem, I stopped really being able to relate to her very well....


As I said, my opinion is that, other than his leaving in New Moon, there wasn't any truly harmful behavior that he demonstrated. Human, vampire or magic leprechaun and regardless of his motivations, his leaving in New Moon did hurt Bella, wounded her to her core. And the repercussions of that are felt for the remainder of the saga. He never meant anything that he did to hurt Bella, though he knew that his leaving would hurt her. He didn't realize how deeply though. Do I think he was wrong to leave in New Moon? Yes. Do I understand completely why he did it? Yes. Do I still hate it? Absolutely. Do I think it was the wrong thing to do? Yes. But, not because I have a higher standard of behavior for one character over the other. I actually agree with HoFJ in that Edward's taking the choice from Bella, making that kind of life altering choice for her without accounting for her actions is wrong. I always think it is wrong when one person takes away the choice of another.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby diane771 » Tue May 12, 2009 12:28 am

That's interesting Jazz, what do you think would have happened if Edward would have stayed?
He did tell her when she was in the hospital, Edward told Bella that he would go somewhere so he could not hurt her anymore. I think if it wasn't Jasper, maybe he would not have left. But to have to be careful of Bella's life even around his own family. I think that just tip the scale and Edward would protect Bella even if it was Jasper, but what would that do to his family? He really only had one choice and it was the ultimate sign of love, by walking away.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby The Dark Knight » Tue May 12, 2009 2:50 am

diane771 wrote:That's interesting Jazz, what do you think would have happened if Edward would have stayed?
He did tell her when she was in the hospital, Edward told Bella that he would go somewhere so he could not hurt her anymore. I think if it wasn't Jasper, maybe he would not have left. But to have to be careful of Bella's life even around his own family. I think that just tip the scale and Edward would protect Bella even if it was Jasper, but what would that do to his family? He really only had one choice and it was the ultimate sign of love, by walking away.


I get where you’re coming from, but he did have numerous other options when dealing with Bella. Let me give a few that he failed to do or didn't see he had. 1st, Jasper and Alice could have moved away till Bella was turned. 2nd He could have turned Bella ASAP. 3rd Bella & Edward could have moved away. 4th he could have restricted the amount of contact with his family. These are but a few choices he could have done...

The best solution was to turn her...I know that is not what he wanted to do but it does not change the fact that it was the best action to take. For that he causes a tone of pain and sorrow for Bella. In my mind that is unforgivable. He saw in Alice’s mind that she would be one of them or dead, better to have her as one of them then dead in my book.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Dovrebanen » Tue May 12, 2009 1:46 pm

diane771 wrote:That's interesting Jazz, what do you think would have happened if Edward would have stayed?
He did tell her when she was in the hospital, Edward told Bella that he would go somewhere so he could not hurt her anymore. I think if it wasn't Jasper, maybe he would not have left. But to have to be careful of Bella's life even around his own family. I think that just tip the scale and Edward would protect Bella even if it was Jasper, but what would that do to his family? He really only had one choice and it was the ultimate sign of love, by walking away.

I think that something sometime would have happened that would make Edward leave anyway even if the Jasper-incident had not happened. He was already thinking about it after James in Twilight. He saw himself as so much of a threat to her safety. He didn't want to impose any more harm into her world, and he didn't want to take anything away from her. So I agree that what happened with Jasper was what made him decide, but in my opinion he probably would have left for some reason at one point anyway.
I agree with you, Jazz Girl, in that Edward hurt Bella so much when he left and much more than he realized, and I think he made the wrong decision. But I couldn't find it in me to blame him, because he didn't intend to hurt her. All he wanted was to make her safe, and he truly believed that she would be better off. And I think that Edward didn't fully realize how deep her feelings for him were. Maybe that was part of the way he saw himself as unworthy of love? He just couldn't believe that her feelings for him were as deep as his feelings for her. And that's where he makes the biggest mistake of all. He actually says:"It will be as if I never existed", and says that human memories fade etc. I think that takes away Bella's right to decide in the relationship, and I wished that he would have talked about it with her instead of taking matters into his own hands. A decision like that is not something that should be made by one part alone.

The Dark Knight wrote:
I get where you’re coming from, but he did have numerous other options when dealing with Bella. Let me give a few that he failed to do or didn't see he had. 1st, Jasper and Alice could have moved away till Bella was turned. 2nd He could have turned Bella ASAP. 3rd Bella & Edward could have moved away. 4th he could have restricted the amount of contact with his family. These are but a few choices he could have done...

The best solution was to turn her...I know that is not what he wanted to do but it does not change the fact that it was the best action to take. For that he causes a tone of pain and sorrow for Bella. In my mind that is unforgivable. He saw in Alice’s mind that she would be one of them or dead, better to have her as one of them then dead in my book.

I agree that Edward had several options besides leaving. The obvious one was to have her spend less time at the Cullen's. And that's what he should have done. But in his mind, he could only see dangers. If it wasn't Jasper, it would be something else from his world that would put her in mortal danger. So he found it best to remove himself completely, not realizing the damage he caused by doing that.
I do not agree that he should have changed her at that point. Because Edward himself wasn't ready for that. He didn't want her to, and I always felt that the decision to turn her should be made by the two of them. I never wanted it to be Carlisle or Alice. I wanted it to be Edward when they both were ready for it. And none of them really were at that point. I actually wanted them to wait as long as possible, to make sure that it was something that they both wanted and that Bella was aware of all the consequences of her choice. And like Edward, I wanted her to have the human experiences. And if Edward had used that brilliant mind of his, he should have seen that he would be able to protect Bella from danger, and that he was all she needed. And he should have stayed.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby diane771 » Tue May 12, 2009 1:50 pm

The Dark Knight wrote:
diane771 wrote:That's interesting Jazz, what do you think would have happened if Edward would have stayed?
He did tell her when she was in the hospital, Edward told Bella that he would go somewhere so he could not hurt her anymore. I think if it wasn't Jasper, maybe he would not have left. But to have to be careful of Bella's life even around his own family. I think that just tip the scale and Edward would protect Bella even if it was Jasper, but what would that do to his family? He really only had one choice and it was the ultimate sign of love, by walking away.


I get where you’re coming from, but he did have numerous other options when dealing with Bella. Let me give a few that he failed to do or didn't see he had. 1st, Jasper and Alice could have moved away till Bella was turned. 2nd He could have turned Bella ASAP. 3rd Bella & Edward could have moved away. 4th he could have restricted the amount of contact with his family. These are but a few choices he could have done...

The best solution was to turn her...I know that is not what he wanted to do but it does not change the fact that it was the best action to take. For that he causes a tone of pain and sorrow for Bella. In my mind that is unforgivable. He saw in Alice’s mind that she would be one of them or dead, better to have her as one of them then dead in my book.


But Edward wanted Bella to remain human, and at least till after she has graduated from high school. You know how Edward is and he would never ask someone to leave for him, so it had to be him or turning Bella, in Eclipse, Edward was really wanting Bella to go to college. Edward wanted Bella to have the the things that he didn't get to experience. "right of passage" Edward
" I saw her life as I had before....college, career...love and marriage Edward.

But didn't Edward also tell Bella her love was like a tree and his was a forest. I still do not understand why you fault Edward so much for leaving her. If something would have happened to her, you would have said, he should have left. It wasn't an easy desision on Edwards part and it hurt him as much as it did her, his world was equally turned upside down because of it, so why do you feel that Edward did such a bad thing. Everybody gets hurt at least once in a relationship thats life, and you are putting Bella up as some fragile person, that know one should ever think about hurting even if it is pure love of her that is going to make her hurt. I know it hurt and I know Edward came back, it is a lot like relationships they need time apart to see how they are going to make this work for them. Edward did take that time.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Jazz Girl » Tue May 12, 2009 4:13 pm

diane771 wrote:That's interesting Jazz, what do you think would have happened if Edward would have stayed?
He did tell her when she was in the hospital, Edward told Bella that he would go somewhere so he could not hurt her anymore. I think if it wasn't Jasper, maybe he would not have left. But to have to be careful of Bella's life even around his own family. I think that just tip the scale and Edward would protect Bella even if it was Jasper, but what would that do to his family? He really only had one choice and it was the ultimate sign of love, by walking away.


Edward planned on leaving from the very beginning. That much is clear. Regardless of whether it was James or Jasper or the Volturi or a meteor falling out of the sky, Edward blamed himself for every bad thing that happened to Bella once he entered her life, placing upon himself the sole and full responsibility to protect her. Yes, he told her in the hospital that he would stay, "as long as it's what's best for you." Edward knew from the first time he laid eyes on Bella that his presense in her life was not what was best for her. That he was completely wrong was immaterial to him. Throughout DHN, he is constantly battling with himself, asking himself if he was strong enough yet to leave her, as he knew he must.

So, to answer your question, I don't think he ever would have stayed. As you so beautifully state; leaving, to Edward, was the ultimate sign of his love for her. He was always going to leave. It was just a matter of what the breaking point would be. But, just because I accept the innevitability of it doesn't mean I think it was the right thing to do, or that I agree with it. But, I do understand why he did it.


The Dark Knight wrote:I get where you’re coming from, but he did have numerous other options when dealing with Bella. Let me give a few that he failed to do or didn't see he had. 1st, Jasper and Alice could have moved away till Bella was turned. 2nd He could have turned Bella ASAP. 3rd Bella & Edward could have moved away. 4th he could have restricted the amount of contact with his family. These are but a few choices he could have done...

The best solution was to turn her...I know that is not what he wanted to do but it does not change the fact that it was the best action to take. For that he causes a tone of pain and sorrow for Bella. In my mind that is unforgivable. He saw in Alice’s mind that she would be one of them or dead, better to have her as one of them then dead in my book.


In the end the best solution was to turn her. But, at that point in the story, Edward could not see any other options. Primarily because most every "other options" involved damning Bella's soul, in his eyes. That was absolutely unacceptable for him. It is as Carlisle points out to Bella in the beginning of New Moon, could you do that to the person you love most in the world?

Yes, he knew Alice's visions. But, I also think that Edward was more aware than anyone that Alice's visions were not set in stone. The future was always changing completely based on the decisions of others. So, Edward's decision was to force that third future, the one where Bella is alive and happy and human, whether he's there or not. He saw the best shot for this as being "not". Again, remember, Edward saw himself as the sole person who could protect Bella even from herself. If his absence was going to be what kept her safe and alive, than so be it. His suffering meant nothing to him. And, I truly believe he did not realize how much she would suffer without him. Edward has gained a bit of a superiority complex over his decades as a vampire, learning to discount just about everything about humans as weaker and much more transient. Think about the changes he has witnessed in the world over 90 years while he remained completely unaltered. Why wouldn't he believe that her feelings for him would fade, that she would heal and move on? He didn't believe it was possible that she was as altered as he was by their love.

In the end, were there other options? Absolutely. But they either involved doing such an evil thing that he could not comprehend it, or else left so much out of his control and took away his ability to protect her. He did the only thing that he saw possible.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Tue May 12, 2009 9:59 pm

I think I maybe agree with you JG. I'm not entirely sure...

I think that him leaving was the most harmful action he took, but the most well-intentioned. Plus, I truly believed that he really thought about it, and he really couldn't see any other way out of the situation. I think that makes all the difference. I am willing to forgive him for that and sort of forget that it ever happened.

What we were speaking of was the truck issue and some of the control issues in Eclipse. I think that the fact that no harm was done, along with his intentions, makes them forgivable. However, the fact that I really don't think he tried to work it out at all, or really thought it through makes it stick in my mind, and therefor also unforgettable.

I think, though, that I don't really want to discuss it. Because we will never agree. I see it as a deeper issue than you do. It brings up questions in my mind. Why did he think he had any right to control anyone that way? What makes him think he's so right about everything? Why doesn't he think he has to respect the decisions of his life partner, etc. Those are all rhetorical, by the way.
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