Edward and Bella #1

Re: Edward and Bella

Postby diane771 » Tue May 12, 2009 10:45 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:I think I maybe agree with you JG. I'm not entirely sure...

I think that him leaving was the most harmful action he took, but the most well-intentioned. Plus, I truly believed that he really thought about it, and he really couldn't see any other way out of the situation. I think that makes all the difference. I am willing to forgive him for that and sort of forget that it ever happened.

What we were speaking of was the truck issue and some of the control issues in Eclipse. I think that the fact that no harm was done, along with his intentions, makes them forgivable. However, the fact that I really don't think he tried to work it out at all, or really thought it through makes it stick in my mind, and therefor also unforgettable.

I think, though, that I don't really want to discuss it. Because we will never agree. I see it as a deeper issue than you do. It brings up questions in my mind. Why did he think he had any right to control anyone that way? What makes him think he's so right about everything? Why doesn't he think he has to respect the decisions of his life partner, etc. Those are all rhetorical, by the way.


Edward didn't control Bella, if he did she would not have become a vampire. As for respecting her decisions he I refuse to damn you to an eternity of night and thats the end of it. If you go back to Twilight chapter 24 and read it again, you might get a different picture on Bella's and Edward's relationship and his controlling of her and everything. Edward gave into Bella everything that she asked for, so how can that be controling? She wanted to becoma a vampire; Edward didn't, She wanted to see Jacob, Edward didn't but she did, , She wanted Renesmee even though it might have killed her, Edward didn't want anything that could kill her in her, but she did and when Edward heard Renesmee he realized it was right but he still could have lost Bella. So Edward controlling on matters of importance, Bella had her way not Edward.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby ringswraith » Tue May 12, 2009 11:30 pm

holdingoutforjacob: Easy- arrogance. Edward's lived for a long time- and he thinks he knows better because he's had that much more experience. Plus, Bella certainly hasn't helped her case any by willingly heading into dangerous situations. It's almost like taking care of a person who cannot make sound decisions by themselves- you have to make those decisions for them.

Now having said that, while I understand the why's of why Edward did it, I don't agree with the how's. But there are things that Edward cannot control- like the werewolves- so he has to do what he can to prevent that situation from happening.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby diane771 » Tue May 12, 2009 11:43 pm

ringswraith wrote:holdingoutforjacob: Easy- arrogance. Edward's lived for a long time- and he thinks he knows better because he's had that much more experience. Plus, Bella certainly hasn't helped her case any by willingly heading into dangerous situations. It's almost like taking care of a person who cannot make sound decisions by themselves- you have to make those decisions for them.

Now having said that, while I understand the why's of why Edward did it, I don't agree with the how's. But there are things that Edward cannot control- like the werewolves- so he has to do what he can to prevent that situation from happening.


Rings, do you really think that Edward was such a dominate in their relationship? Edward always gave into what Bella wanted to make her happy so I like to know where do you see the dominence coming from. Is it him protecting her and maybe being a little over protective, because he knows how fragile humans are? Trying to let Jacob get control of himself so he did something to her truck, that one thing is that all the others come up with? Help me out here, I just do not see Edward as dominant, I do see Jacob as being more dominant than Edward.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby ringswraith » Tue May 12, 2009 11:47 pm

diane771 wrote:Rings, do you really think that Edward was such a dominate in their relationship? Edward always gave into what Bella wanted to make her happy so I like to know where do you see the dominence coming from. Is it him protecting her and maybe being a little over protective, because he knows how fragile humans are? Trying to let Jacob get control of himself so he did something to her truck, that one thing is that all the others come up with? Help me out here, I just do not see Edward as dominant, I do see Jacob as being more dominant than Edward.


My post was in response to what holdingoutforjacob posted. Yes, I'm aware she indicated they were rhetorical questions- but this is what I think about the situation.

Do I think that Edward was dominant in the relationship? Not exactly. In most things, he let Bella have her way- he wanted nothing more than Bella to be happy. But more than that, he wanted her to be safe. When it came to her safety, he overstepped his bounds- even when Bella protested- and did what he felt he had to do, in order to keep things in a place where he maintained control. For example, he couldn't go to La Push because of the treaty. If Bella went there, he wouldn't be able to follow. So what's the next best thing? Keep Bella from going there in the first place.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby diane771 » Tue May 12, 2009 11:56 pm

ringswraith wrote:
diane771 wrote:Rings, do you really think that Edward was such a dominate in their relationship? Edward always gave into what Bella wanted to make her happy so I like to know where do you see the dominence coming from. Is it him protecting her and maybe being a little over protective, because he knows how fragile humans are? Trying to let Jacob get control of himself so he did something to her truck, that one thing is that all the others come up with? Help me out here, I just do not see Edward as dominant, I do see Jacob as being more dominant than Edward.


My post was in response to what holdingoutforjacob posted. Yes, I'm aware she indicated they were rhetorical questions- but this is what I think about the situation.

Do I think that Edward was dominant in the relationship? Not exactly. In most things, he let Bella have her way- he wanted nothing more than Bella to be happy. But more than that, he wanted her to be safe. When it came to her safety, he overstepped his bounds- even when Bella protested- and did what he felt he had to do, in order to keep things in a place where he maintained control. For example, he couldn't go to La Push because of the treaty. If Bella went there, he wouldn't be able to follow. So what's the next best thing? Keep Bella from going there in the first place.



I totally agree, I thought we were on the same page, but some of the post are saying how Edward is controling so I wanted to get some honest feedback from you LOL :lol: Thanks, at least you haven't gone to the dark side yet :lol:
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby The Dark Knight » Wed May 13, 2009 2:17 am

diane771 wrote:
ringswraith wrote:
diane771 wrote:Rings, do you really think that Edward was such a dominate in their relationship? Edward always gave into what Bella wanted to make her happy so I like to know where do you see the dominence coming from. Is it him protecting her and maybe being a little over protective, because he knows how fragile humans are? Trying to let Jacob get control of himself so he did something to her truck, that one thing is that all the others come up with? Help me out here, I just do not see Edward as dominant, I do see Jacob as being more dominant than Edward.


My post was in response to what holdingoutforjacob posted. Yes, I'm aware she indicated they were rhetorical questions- but this is what I think about the situation.

Do I think that Edward was dominant in the relationship? Not exactly. In most things, he let Bella have her way- he wanted nothing more than Bella to be happy. But more than that, he wanted her to be safe. When it came to her safety, he overstepped his bounds- even when Bella protested- and did what he felt he had to do, in order to keep things in a place where he maintained control. For example, he couldn't go to La Push because of the treaty. If Bella went there, he wouldn't be able to follow. So what's the next best thing? Keep Bella from going there in the first place.



I totally agree, I thought we were on the same page, but some of the post are saying how Edward is controling so I wanted to get some honest feedback from you LOL :lol: Thanks, at least you haven't gone to the dark side yet :lol:



I guess that make me the dark side,

I still maintain that Edward was in the dominate role. Yes, he gave Bella most everything she wanted, but being in the position to give it shows he could have done otherwise. When looking at any relationship whether political, economic, social or romantic the "Base" concept of dominance comes down to one thing; "He/She, who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." In the case of Bella and Edward, Edward was in control. He left her and in doing so destroyed a part of Bella.

Can you see my POV?
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Jadey » Wed May 13, 2009 7:40 am

I don't see Edward as controlling.
I see Bella as a little controlling.
I see Jacob as the most controlling.

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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Dovrebanen » Wed May 13, 2009 9:05 am

To sum up the situation, I agree with you, Jadey. Putting it simple, it is like that in my opinion :)

The Dark Knight wrote:

I guess that make me the dark side,

I still maintain that Edward was in the dominate role. Yes, he gave Bella most everything she wanted, but being in the position to give it shows he could have done otherwise. When looking at any relationship whether political, economic, social or romantic the "Base" concept of dominance comes down to one thing; "He/She, who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." In the case of Bella and Edward, Edward was in control. He left her and in doing so destroyed a part of Bella.

Can you see my POV?

Ok, this question wasn't addressed to me. But I haven't been on Edward and Bella in ages (ehhm..a day tor two :)), so I'll reply anyway.
Dark Knight, I can see your POV. But I don't agree with you. Yes, Edward was in the position that he could deny Bella certain things. But Bella knew that he wouldn't do that. At least not for long. He loved her and he would do absolutely anything for her. Even in regards to Jacob, she got her way eventually. So like ringswraith said, he overstepped the line in regards to her safety, but that was not because he wanted to control her. It was all in respect to keeping her safe. In my opinion, Bella had the more powerful role in the relationship. She subjected Edward to all kinds of hurt. She counted on his love for when she kept going to La Push. In my opinion, Bella had the power to break Edward, because he loved her so much and because he only wanted the very best for her even at the expence of himself. And I'm not saying that Bella used that consciously, but she was in a position to. Edward felt himself not good (enough) for her, and so he would give her anything.

And I'm not sure what you mean by the person who can destroy a thing, controls a thing. Do you mean that this is something that runs through their whole relationship? Because in my opinion, Edward was not in a position to destroy anything. He left because he saw no other option. I'll admit, he was wrong. But considering that he was a vampire, who had first brought James into her world, and then couldn't even protect her from his only family, I can't blame him for thinking that she would be better off without him. And he sincerly wanted her to have the life that she deserved, and he felt that a life with him was not for her. I think it was diane who said somewhere that Edward gave Bella the ultimate gift/sacrifice of love (sorry, can't remember the exact words), by leaving. He gave up his own happiness for her. It didn't turn out well, but his intentions were the very best.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby The Dark Knight » Wed May 13, 2009 9:28 am

Jadey wrote:I don't see Edward as controlling.
I see Bella as a little controlling.
I see Jacob as the most controlling.



Jadey,

Let me see if I can explain how Edward is controlling. First it's subtle; those that are good at controlling make it look as if they are not. Things go well if everyone thinks they have some say or choice in a decision when in fact the decision was made long before it was given to all parties to discuss. In the decision process those in the know make course correction to bring everyone to the preordain decision. It happens all the time. :idea:

Edward often did compromises, as a way to get things done his way. Even when Bella got one over him, he was able to change the conditions to meet his POV. The best example I could give on this was the subtle way he maneuvered Bella after the vote on her mortality. He had at some point already decided that Bella was going to be one of the Cullen’s; he just didn’t want it to be the way Bella had arranged it. It is clear in the book he wanted Bella to experience human life for as long as he could keep her that way. So he got her to want him to be the one to transform her. :o

It’s not a big leap of faith to know that Bella would rather Edward changed her over anyone else. Armed with that bit of knowledge he set a condition (Marriage) that would keep her human. I dare say in some of the conversations that we are not privy to (not written in the books) she would have told him about her dislike of marriage right out of high school. He like Charlie (in Charles case thinking Renee would strongly hold to her guns on the marriage thing) made the mistake in thinking that the marriage would take some years to come to pass. We see Edward use the, “I’ll change you now,” knowing full well she wouldn’t go for it (these are him subtly doing course corrections). :roll:

In the chapter title “Compromise” we see Bella try to take charge of the situation (sex before the change) and that by the time they are done with that lovely night together she had given into all of Edwards desires (Car, College and the big one Marriage). She walks away from that evening wondering how her well conceived plan got all turned around and she has agreed to everything and Edward only has agreed to “We’ll give it a try.” 8-)

The train of events is not by mistake. Edward is smart and crafty as well as subtle. He knows how to play the game well. He handle the real threat of Jacob skillfully by deciding to play the nice guy which is the only way to “Let” Bella come to the preordain decision. He simple nudges her back on course here too. So when you re-read the books take a look at how Edward was able to guide Bella a long. Control dose not have to be heavy handed.

Can you see how the master of manipulation Edward was able to pull the strings now? He does have nearly a hundred years of seeing how humans do such things under his belt.

*** I see how you would think Bella is a little controlling but I think the only time she was in the driver seat was the time leading up to newborn fight. Other than that I see Edwards’s subtle hand behind her moves. :?

*** Jacob being the most controlling is an odd view to me. He is the least in control of all. I guess his heavy handed attempts to get his way are what you are referring to. In that, I will only say that he was trying the most to be controlling when in fact he was never in control. He was played like a fiddle by Edward the nice guy. We see this all come out when Bella was kind of listening to Edward and Jacob’s talk in the tent (in Eclipse). ;)

Here’s a general statement to ponder. Werewolves are wild out of control beasts that follow their instincts, whereas Vampires are subtle creatures that move in a cloak of darkness to disguise their motives and plans. :twisted:

I hope this helps lift the veil off who was in control. It’s Edward all along. To put into Clue terms, it was Edward in the Observatory with the Knife. :lol:
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Jazz Girl » Wed May 13, 2009 9:42 am

The Dark Knight wrote:
diane771 wrote:
ringswraith wrote:
diane771 wrote:Rings, do you really think that Edward was such a dominate in their relationship? Edward always gave into what Bella wanted to make her happy so I like to know where do you see the dominence coming from. Is it him protecting her and maybe being a little over protective, because he knows how fragile humans are? Trying to let Jacob get control of himself so he did something to her truck, that one thing is that all the others come up with? Help me out here, I just do not see Edward as dominant, I do see Jacob as being more dominant than Edward.


My post was in response to what holdingoutforjacob posted. Yes, I'm aware she indicated they were rhetorical questions- but this is what I think about the situation.

Do I think that Edward was dominant in the relationship? Not exactly. In most things, he let Bella have her way- he wanted nothing more than Bella to be happy. But more than that, he wanted her to be safe. When it came to her safety, he overstepped his bounds- even when Bella protested- and did what he felt he had to do, in order to keep things in a place where he maintained control. For example, he couldn't go to La Push because of the treaty. If Bella went there, he wouldn't be able to follow. So what's the next best thing? Keep Bella from going there in the first place.



I totally agree, I thought we were on the same page, but some of the post are saying how Edward is controling so I wanted to get some honest feedback from you LOL :lol: Thanks, at least you haven't gone to the dark side yet :lol:



I guess that make me the dark side,

I still maintain that Edward was in the dominate role. Yes, he gave Bella most everything she wanted, but being in the position to give it shows he could have done otherwise. When looking at any relationship whether political, economic, social or romantic the "Base" concept of dominance comes down to one thing; "He/She, who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." In the case of Bella and Edward, Edward was in control. He left her and in doing so destroyed a part of Bella.

Can you see my POV?


Dark Knight~, I can see your POV, but I don't agree with it. The power to destroy doesn't give someone control over something any more or less so than it gives power to the person who allows it to be destroyed. But, that point is moot in this case, in my opinion. Bella also had the power to destroy the realtionship, more so even than Edward I think, because Edward honestly didn't really have a breaking point. Edward would have dealt with anything, put up with any behavior, swallowed every bitter pill he had to to protect Bella and keep her happy. Look at what he puts up with in Eclipse. Does he react to it? Yes, and as well he should. But, in Eclipse, Edward, in his quest to atone for the sin of leaving the woman he loves, repeatedly swallows every ounce of anger and bitterness and jealousy that he is rightfully entitled to feel, doing nothing and saying nothing about the hurt Bella is inflicting on him through her actions with Jacob.

The base concept of dominance comes down to control, not destruction. Who has the control? Who wields the control? And, who yeilds the control? And, in all honesty, the balance of power and control shifts after New Moon. In Twilight and New Moon, it is clearly Edward driving the relationship and Bella trying to find her footing and keep up. After teh reconcilliation in New Moon, Bella pretty much has all of the emotional power in the relationship because Edward, regardless of his own feelings is always eventually going to give in to Bella. Bella stands firm on all of the things she stands and fights for. Edward caves every time. Seeing Jacob. Spending time at LaPush. Turning Bella. Making love while she is mortal. Carrying and giving birth to Renesmee. Yes, Edward might have the physical power in the relationship until Bella is turned. But he will never use it against her. In relationships, it is the emotional power that counts, and it is Bella that has all of that.
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