Edward and Bella #1

Re: Edward and Bella

Postby The Dark Knight » Wed May 13, 2009 9:46 am

Dovrebanen wrote:To sum up the situation, I agree with you, Jadey. Putting it simple, it is like that in my opinion :)

The Dark Knight wrote:

I guess that make me the dark side,

I still maintain that Edward was in the dominate role. Yes, he gave Bella most everything she wanted, but being in the position to give it shows he could have done otherwise. When looking at any relationship whether political, economic, social or romantic the "Base" concept of dominance comes down to one thing; "He/She, who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." In the case of Bella and Edward, Edward was in control. He left her and in doing so destroyed a part of Bella.

Can you see my POV?

Ok, this question wasn't addressed to me. But I haven't been on Edward and Bella in ages (ehhm..a day tor two :)), so I'll reply anyway.
Dark Knight, I can see your POV. But I don't agree with you. Yes, Edward was in the position that he could deny Bella certain things. But Bella knew that he wouldn't do that. At least not for long. He loved her and he would do absolutely anything for her. Even in regards to Jacob, she got her way eventually. So like ringswraith said, he overstepped the line in regards to her safety, but that was not because he wanted to control her. It was all in respect to keeping her safe. In my opinion, Bella had the more powerful role in the relationship. She subjected Edward to all kinds of hurt. She counted on his love for when she kept going to La Push. In my opinion, Bella had the power to break Edward, because he loved her so much and because he only wanted the very best for her even at the expence of himself. And I'm not saying that Bella used that consciously, but she was in a position to. Edward felt himself not good (enough) for her, and so he would give her anything.

And I'm not sure what you mean by the person who can destroy a thing, controls a thing. Do you mean that this is something that runs through their whole relationship? Because in my opinion, Edward was not in a position to destroy anything. He left because he saw no other option. I'll admit, he was wrong. But considering that he was a vampire, who had first brought James into her world, and then couldn't even protect her from his only family, I can't blame him for thinking that she would be better off without him. And he sincerly wanted her to have the life that she deserved, and he felt that a life with him was not for her. I think it was diane who said somewhere that Edward gave Bella the ultimate gift/sacrifice of love (sorry, can't remember the exact words), by leaving. He gave up his own happiness for her. It didn't turn out well, but his intentions were the very best.


Dovrebanen,

I have to agree that Edward’s main motives where to keep Bella safe. It became his occupation for a time. As for Bella putting him in a world of hurt I get your POV and agree to some degree but if you read what I replied to Jadey (previous post), you can see that my POV is that Edward playing the nice guy was the hand behind her being able to go to La Push. Did it drive Edward Crazy; well I think we can all say YES. Is it part of the plan for Edward, yep?

The only way Bella could break Edward is by dying and that power lies in all love.

Let me see if I can better explain the quote of “the person who can destroy a thing, controls a thing.” In all forms of control the path in determining who has control can best be followed back to the person in charge by this simple quote. The person who can destroy a project, relationship or idea is the one in charge; everyone else is along for the ride. It’s a universal truth in nature and in relationships. In this case Edward demonstrates that he is the hand behind the relationship by leaving in NM. I don’t think Bella would have that ability, at least not in the books I read. Maybe you see it differently than that, “could Bella leave Edward?” I just don’t see her being able to do that.

This is why I think Edward is in control of the relationship and not Bella.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Dovrebanen » Wed May 13, 2009 1:13 pm

The Dark Knight wrote:Edward often did compromises, as a way to get things done his way. Even when Bella got one over him, he was able to change the conditions to meet his POV. The best example I could give on this was the subtle way he maneuvered Bella after the vote on her mortality. He had at some point already decided that Bella was going to be one of the Cullen’s; he just didn’t want it to be the way Bella had arranged it. It is clear in the book he wanted Bella to experience human life for as long as he could keep her that way. So he got her to want him to be the one to transform her. :o

It’s not a big leap of faith to know that Bella would rather Edward changed her over anyone else. Armed with that bit of knowledge he set a condition (Marriage) that would keep her human. I dare say in some of the conversations that we are not privy to (not written in the books) she would have told him about her dislike of marriage right out of high school. He like Charlie (in Charles case thinking Renee would strongly hold to her guns on the marriage thing) made the mistake in thinking that the marriage would take some years to come to pass. We see Edward use the, “I’ll change you now,” knowing full well she wouldn’t go for it (these are him subtly doing course corrections). :roll:

I just can't agree to this. Edward had not decided that Bella was going to be one of the Cullens. Quite the opposite. He didn't want her to. I believe that he would have stayed with her all her human life if he could, and loved her every second of it. And when she died, he would have ended his existence as well. But Bella was already making other arrangements. She had Carlisle promise her to do it. And Edward was bying time. I think in the hopes of her having so many human experiences that she would ultimately change her mind, or if she couldn't be swayed, that she at least would know what she was loosing. That was Edward's biggest fear in life, to take something away from Bella. I don't think it had anything do with Edward not wanting the change to happen her way. He was against the idea no matter how it played out. For himself, he would want Bella to join him, but not for her. But at one point I think he realized that her mind was really set, and that's when he started bying time. He asked her to marry him, but I think he did that also because he really wanted to marry her. And if she wasn't ready to commit to marriage, she wasn't ready for immortality.
The Dark Knight wrote:Dovrebanen,

I have to agree that Edward’s main motives where to keep Bella safe. It became his occupation for a time. As for Bella putting him in a world of hurt I get your POV and agree to some degree but if you read what I replied to Jadey (previous post), you can see that my POV is that Edward playing the nice guy was the hand behind her being able to go to La Push. Did it drive Edward Crazy; well I think we can all say YES. Is it part of the plan for Edward, yep?

No, I don't see it as part of the plan. I don't see Edward as having such a plan or playing the nice guy. He let her go to La Push because he knew that she would do it anyway. And by letting her go he would be informed when she would be there, and he would be allowed to take her to the boarder. It was a compromise that both of them could live with. And he could make sure that she stayed safe.

The Dark Knight wrote:The only way Bella could break Edward is by dying and that power lies in all love.

In this case Edward demonstrates that he is the hand behind the relationship by leaving in NM. I don’t think Bella would have that ability, at least not in the books I read. Maybe you see it differently than that, “could Bella leave Edward?” I just don’t see her being able to do that.

This is why I think Edward is in control of the relationship and not Bella.

I agree, I dont' see Bella as being able to leave Edward. She couldn't live without him. That was proven pretty well both after he left in NM, and before the fight with the newborns in Eclipse. But Bella really didn't have a reason to leave Edward either. She wasn't the one putting him in mortal danger. Her relatives didn't try to take a snap at Edward. It was Edward who saw himself as the monster. So he was forced to make the decision as to whether he should stay or leave. Bella never had to make that choice. So in my opinion, this does not make Edward the one who was in control in the relationship. It was just him doing what he felt he had to in the situation, in the hope of creating a better life for Bella.
And in my opinion, Bella could break Edward in more ways than dying. Edward would keep it all inside. Jazz Girl said that Edward didn't really have a breaking point. I mean, he would be heartbroken, but he would never show that to Bella. He would take everything sitting down as long as it was the best for Bella. So I think she was in control, because he allowed her to inflict hurt upon him over and over again. This was especially after he came back, because he felt the need to constantly repay what he did. He needed to convince her that he would never leave again, and that in a way made it easier for Bella to do what she wanted. Because Edward always understood. And if he even suspected that Bella would be happier without him, he would have left. That's why I say that Bella was more in control in the relationship.
Dark Knight, this is really interesting. I like your posts :)
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby diane771 » Wed May 13, 2009 2:30 pm

Ok now what is this When looking at any relationship whether political, economic, social or romantic the "Base" concept of dominance comes down to one thing; "He/She, who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." In the case of Bella and Edward, Edward was in control. He left her and in doing so destroyed a part of Bella.

I am interested in knowing where did you came up with that?
The only way Bella could break Edward is by dying and that power lies in all love.
All Bella had to do was to tell Edward to go away and he would, so who is in control?
Now we come here
person who can destroy a project, relationship or idea is the one in charge; everyone else is along for the ride. It’s a universal truth in nature and in relationships. In this case Edward demonstrates that he is the hand behind the relationship by leaving
The universal truth ? what does this have to do with Bella and Edward. I really find it amazing if Bella had left Edward, then that would be alright, but since Edward was controlling, domineering and manpulative he is the bad guy for breaking Bella's heart, even if it broke his heart just as bad? Edward didn't gain anything by leaving except keeping Bella safe. Do you think that all that you are saying about Edward being so controlling, and everything else you have said is the way Stephenie sees Edward? No not at all. It's about 2 people who desperately love each other and will do anything to be together. Edward's leaving was the ultimate sign of love, not controlling the relationship at all.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Jadey » Thu May 14, 2009 2:03 am

I don't believe Edward leaving in New Moon made him 'the hand behind the relationship'. I doubt he gained anything at all, except that he loves her too much to ever leave her side again. (Which also shows Bella has power over him ;) ) Leaving Bella to protect her makes him in charge? To me, leaving her shows that hes weak, and is afraid of control. And in leaving, he not only destroyed a part of Bella (unintentionally) but he destroyed himself. I don't think he had any plans or intentions when deciding to leave Bella. Only hoping that she would live the life she deserved.

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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby The Dark Knight » Thu May 14, 2009 2:38 am

Great post folks,

Let me see if I can do them justice with replies.

Jazz Girl wrote:Dark Knight~, I can see your POV, but I don't agree with it. The power to destroy doesn't give someone control over something any more or less so than it gives power to the person who allows it to be destroyed. But, that point is moot in this case, in my opinion. Bella also had the power to destroy the realtionship, more so even than Edward I think, because Edward honestly didn't really have a breaking point. Edward would have dealt with anything, put up with any behavior, swallowed every bitter pill he had to to protect Bella and keep her happy. Look at what he puts up with in Eclipse. Does he react to it? Yes, and as well he should. But, in Eclipse, Edward, in his quest to atone for the sin of leaving the woman he loves, repeatedly swallows every ounce of anger and bitterness and jealousy that he is rightfully entitled to feel, doing nothing and saying nothing about the hurt Bella is inflicting on him through her actions with Jacob.

The base concept of dominance comes down to control, not destruction. Who has the control? Who wields the control? And, who yeilds the control? And, in all honesty, the balance of power and control shifts after New Moon. In Twilight and New Moon, it is clearly Edward driving the relationship and Bella trying to find her footing and keep up. After teh reconcilliation in New Moon, Bella pretty much has all of the emotional power in the relationship because Edward, regardless of his own feelings is always eventually going to give in to Bella. Bella stands firm on all of the things she stands and fights for. Edward caves every time. Seeing Jacob. Spending time at LaPush. Turning Bella. Making love while she is mortal. Carrying and giving birth to Renesmee. Yes, Edward might have the physical power in the relationship until Bella is turned. But he will never use it against her. In relationships, it is the emotional power that counts, and it is Bella that has all of that.


Jazz Girl, your comment of, The power to destroy doesn't give someone control over something any more or less so than it gives power to the person who allows it to be destroyed. gives me great concern. By definition in logic or psychology the ultimate form of control has always been defined this way. These are not my opinions but based on academic main stream standards. Thus, your statement above makes no sense to me. There are many such universal truths like:

Self interest governs all.
Love knows no bounds.
Chaos will consume itself.


Just to name a few. Your argument does not hold water because of this. Feel free to differ on this if you like.

The next part I beg to differ on is Edward honestly didn't really have a breaking point. Edward proves in New Moon his only breaking point is the death of Bella. I dare say that because of this being tested he changes his POV about Bella and the end game he has for them. I make that point in another post about motives.

Edward is subtle and knows what he wants and will do anything to get it. As such he does get the girl in the end…
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby The Dark Knight » Thu May 14, 2009 3:08 am

Doverbanen,

Thank you, this discussion is very interesting to me as well. I truly get a lot out of seeing other view points. I may not agree with them as we all have that right but it does give me an insight that I would not have otherwise. Now to your points…
******



I just can't agree to this. Edward had not decided that Bella was going to be one of the Cullens. Quite the opposite. He didn't want her to. I believe that he would have stayed with her all her human life if he could, and loved her every second of it. And when she died, he would have ended his existence as well. But Bella was already making other arrangements. She had Carlisle promise her to do it. And Edward was bying time. I think in the hopes of her having so many human experiences that she would ultimately change her mind, or if she couldn't be swayed, that she at least would know what she was loosing. That was Edward's biggest fear in life, to take something away from Bella. I don't think it had anything do with Edward not wanting the change to happen her way. He was against the idea no matter how it played out. For himself, he would want Bella to join him, but not for her. But at one point I think he realized that her mind was really set, and that's when he started bying time. He asked her to marry him, but I think he did that also because he really wanted to marry her. And if she wasn't ready to commit to marriage, she wasn't ready for immortality.
*******

Hummm, your first point is partially true, as I stated in the motive post, Edward changes his POV on Bella after the Clock Tower. So his view on Bella being apart of the family does change. It was argue to me that he made the decision after the Baseball Game to have her apart of the Family, but IMHO is was after the clock tower…your thoughts?
******

No, I don't see it as part of the plan. I don't see Edward as having such a plan or playing the nice guy. He let her go to La Push because he knew that she would do it anyway. And by letting her go he would be informed when she would be there, and he would be allowed to take her to the boarder. It was a compromise that both of them could live with. And he could make sure that she stayed safe.
*****

How very interesting, you may need to reread Eclipse, The chapter Fire and Ice. It talks directly to Edward having a plan of being the “Nice Guy.” It also talks about Edward and Jacob fight over Bella with many insights on how they are both playing the game. This is likely to change your viewpoint.
*****

I agree, I don’t' see Bella as being able to leave Edward. She couldn't live without him. That was proven pretty well both after he left in NM, and before the fight with the newborns in Eclipse. But Bella really didn't have a reason to leave Edward either. She wasn't the one putting him in mortal danger. Her relatives didn't try to take a snap at Edward. It was Edward who saw himself as the monster. So he was forced to make the decision as to whether he should stay or leave. Bella never had to make that choice. So in my opinion, this does not make Edward the one who was in control in the relationship. It was just him doing what he felt he had to in the situation, in the hope of creating a better life for Bella.
And in my opinion, Bella could break Edward in more ways than dying. Edward would keep it all inside. Jazz Girl said that Edward didn't really have a breaking point. I mean, he would be heartbroken, but he would never show that to Bella. He would take everything sitting down as long as it was the best for Bella. So I think she was in control, because he allowed her to inflict hurt upon him over and over again. This was especially after he came back, because he felt the need to constantly repay what he did. He needed to convince her that he would never leave again, and that in a way made it easier for Bella to do what she wanted. Because Edward always understood. And if he even suspected that Bella would be happier without him, he would have left. That's why I say that Bella was more in control in the relationship.
Dark Knight, this is really interesting. I like your posts
*****

I agree with you that Bella had no reason to leave. She was happy and getting most of what she wanted. I would again disagree that Edward had no breaking point. The death of Bella is his breaking point. New Moon proves that too us as he goes to the Votaries to die. A side note, Charlie does snap at Edward and places many limitations on him; it is likely he even thought of wounding Edward…

I love the continued view point of “Because Edward always understood.” That is given often with out backing to why Edward does this. What is his real motive? I contend and have yet to be discredited that his motive after the Clock tower was to win Bella. He all but admits it in the tent that he is playing that hard to win her hand. I dare say that with Edward’s special ability he has had decades to view how the human mind works. Jacob evens speaks to this in the tent. Edward’s motives to manipulate the events to his advantage to gain what he wants (Bella), is clear to me. Are you denying this is his true motive? If so help me understand what you think is his true motives are…
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby The Dark Knight » Thu May 14, 2009 3:44 am

by diane771 » Wed May 13, 2009 12:30 pm
Ok now what is this When looking at any relationship whether political, economic, social or romantic the "Base" concept of dominance comes down to one thing; "He/She, who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." In the case of Bella and Edward, Edward was in control. He left her and in doing so destroyed a part of Bella.

It’s an attempt to apply a logic statement as a base to prove my point. To date no one has been able to disprove this statement of facts.

I am interested in knowing where did you came up with that?
The only way Bella could break Edward is by dying and that power lies in all love.
All Bella had to do was to tell Edward to go away and he would, so who is in control?

As Dovrebanen stated and I concur with Bella has no reason to leave Edward or to tell him to leave. It’s just not within the realm of possibilities in the book. At least that’s the way I see it. The only thing that is in the book is her jumping off the cliff that set the whole chain of events in NM. Thus my point is that Bella could only break Edward by dying. This is a supporting reason given to why I think Edward the master manipulator is in control of the relationship.

Now we come here
person who can destroy a project, relationship or idea is the one in charge; everyone else is along for the ride. It’s a universal truth in nature and in relationships. In this case Edward demonstrates that he is the hand behind the relationship by leaving
The universal truth ? what does this have to do with Bella and Edward. I really find it amazing if Bella had left Edward, then that would be alright, but since Edward was controlling, domineering and manpulative he is the bad guy for breaking Bella's heart, even if it broke his heart just as bad? Edward didn't gain anything by leaving except keeping Bella safe. Do you think that all that you are saying about Edward being so controlling, and everything else you have said is the way Stephenie sees Edward? No not at all. It's about 2 people who desperately love each other and will do anything to be together. Edward's leaving was the ultimate sign of love, not controlling the relationship at all.

First I state it’s “a universal truth” not the only one. In short, I am applying a logic definition to support my argument that Edward is in the driver seat of their relationship. At no point have I addressed Bella leaving Edward as a good thing. Pretty much I am sticking to the books as canon with a few leaps of faith.

Let us come to a straight out the book point that is not disputable. Edward is a bad guy. Yep, I said it. He states it often in Twilight; he admits he wanted to kill Bella on more than one occasion. He admits to murder. He commits grand theft. These are facts that are not disputable. I for one think his leaving Bella in NM a high crime. His selfish attitude nearly cost Bella her life to Lawrence and later to Victoria. It was only due to the fates that she lived at all. So, to me he is a bad guy, albeit with some good traits. I’m sure this section will get some responses. I look forward to seeing fact based opinions on this…

To your point about how SM sees Edward, I have no real understanding how she really see’s him. From her own website she states that the characters tell the story to her and she then puts it on the page (over simplified I am sure). I can only give you what I have read and how logic applies to it. Many have their own POV on Edward, some choice to see him without faults giving him a pass on his transgression because they want to. Some just say laws don’t apply to him. For myself, regardless of him being a vampire, he is personally responsible for his actions and those actions are either good to bad. He will be accountable for both.

I do agree that this is a wonderful love story, like Romeo and Juliette. They too had good and bad actions that they ultimately paid for. I am glad that SM had a much happier ending to Twilight.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby The Dark Knight » Thu May 14, 2009 3:55 am

Jadey wrote:I don't believe Edward leaving in New Moon made him 'the hand behind the relationship'. I doubt he gained anything at all, except that he loves her too much to ever leave her side again. (Which also shows Bella has power over him ;) ) Leaving Bella to protect her makes him in charge? To me, leaving her shows that hes weak, and is afraid of control. And in leaving, he not only destroyed a part of Bella (unintentionally) but he destroyed himself. I don't think he had any plans or intentions when deciding to leave Bella. Only hoping that she would live the life she deserved.


Jadey you are free to belive what ever you like. That's ok. To me Edward did gain a huge bit of knowldge that you mention, "except that he loves her too much to ever leave her side again." In my book this vastly changes his POV of his relationship with Bella. He adds the motive of "Bella and Edward forever." I have posed several times that this change in motive is the driving force behind him in the relationship. It is the bases for his plan to play the "Nice guy," to win Bella's Hand. Please understand, i am not saying Edward has absolute control over Bella, but rather he is the one in the driver seat. His subtle guidance ultimately get's him the girl...

Leavign Bella is by defintion an act of control, albeit not the best decision he is ever to make. I truly think his leaving is a knee jerk reaction that not all the Cullen's agreed with but did support for Edwards sake.

I am not sure if he had a full plan or not when he left Bella, but I am convinced that he had one when he came back.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Brumfondl » Thu May 14, 2009 5:09 am

While I generally agree with what you have been saying, TDK, I am not sure if you have the motive entirely right. I think it goes more like 'Bella and Edward for as long as she is alive' before finally morphing to 'Forever' by the end of the pregnancy. He has definite ideas about having lost his soul and not wanting Bella to lose hers (even though she tries to convince him that he really believes otherwise after the Clock Tower incident). After the vote he devotes his considerable manipulation skills to keeping her human for as long as possible. That he finally fails due to giving her the ultimate human experience is a spectacular piece of irony.

There is NOW WAY AT ALL that Bella could leave Edward or ask him to leave. Nuff said on that point.

Edward is controlling and manipulative and describes himself as selfish. For the vast majority of the relationship he is the one in the driver's seat and Bella is very happy to go along for the ride. I think the whole running off to Italy to save him episode is the ultimate sign of who wears the pants. Her belief that he needs to be in the world, even if he doesn't want her in his world shows that she places him far above herself (well she places most people above herself, its her reason for not ending it all when he leaves her) and her feeling that he is worth much more than her will always give him control.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby The Dark Knight » Thu May 14, 2009 5:18 am

Brumfondl wrote:While I generally agree with what you have been saying, TDK, I am not sure if you have the motive entirely right. I think it goes more like 'Bella and Edward for as long as she is alive' before finally morphing to 'Forever' by the end of the pregnancy. He has definite ideas about having lost his soul and not wanting Bella to lose hers (even though she tries to convince him that he really believes otherwise after the Clock Tower incident). After the vote he devotes his considerable manipulation skills to keeping her human for as long as possible. That he finally fails due to giving her the ultimate human experience is a spectacular piece of irony.

There is NOW WAY AT ALL that Bella could leave Edward or ask him to leave. Nuff said on that point.

Edward is controlling and manipulative and describes himself as selfish. For the vast majority of the relationship he is the one in the driver's seat and Bella is very happy to go along for the ride. I think the whole running off to Italy to save him episode is the ultimate sign of who wears the pants. Her belief that he needs to be in the world, even if he doesn't want her in his world shows that she places him far above herself (well she places most people above herself, its her reason for not ending it all when he leaves her) and her feeling that he is worth much more than her will always give him control.


I'm not sure we can make his motives entirely right. Nor can we say right here is when he decides to add Edward and Bella forever. All we can do is give a reasonalbe proximity to when it happens and move forward. When I read NM and the clock tower scene that is when in my mine he makes the decision but it can be argued that he make the decision in severalother places too.

Now this is just a wicked point; "That he finally fails due to giving her the ultimate human experience is a spectacular piece of irony." I could not have put this better. Well done ;)
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