Edward and Bella #1

Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Jadey » Thu May 14, 2009 5:59 am

What is wrong with Edward being in the 'drivers seat'
He is the man in the relationship. And it's only natural that the man wants to be somewhat incharge, and wants to wear the pants. And if Bella seems reasonably comfortable with it, then why not?
Edward isn't in the drivers seat intentionally.
While shes human, he needs to have a reasonable amount of control. When it comes to the relationship side. Bella is in more control. Whatever she wants. She gets.
I don't think Edward intentionally plays 'the nice guy' either.
Bella tells him to chill. Edward realises that having a tiny hissy fit over the Jacob thing won't get him anywhere. And Bella doesn't like it. Bella wants him to chill, so he chills. He does what she wants. She's in the drivers seat.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Brumfondl » Thu May 14, 2009 7:05 am

Jadey wrote:
Bella tells him to chill. Edward realises that having a tiny hissy fit over the Jacob thing won't get him anywhere. And Bella doesn't like it. Bella wants him to chill, so he chills. He does what she wants. She's in the drivers seat.


He does what she wants in this instance so he can have more control over something that he realsises is going to happen anyway. He sets conditions. While I don't agree that he isn't in the drivers seat intentionally, I do agree that there is nothing wrong with him being in control.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby The Dark Knight » Thu May 14, 2009 7:39 am

Jadey wrote:What is wrong with Edward being in the 'drivers seat'
He is the man in the relationship. And it's only natural that the man wants to be somewhat incharge, and wants to wear the pants. And if Bella seems reasonably comfortable with it, then why not?
Edward isn't in the drivers seat intentionally.
While shes human, he needs to have a reasonable amount of control. When it comes to the relationship side. Bella is in more control. Whatever she wants. She gets.
I don't think Edward intentionally plays 'the nice guy' either.
Bella tells him to chill. Edward realises that having a tiny hissy fit over the Jacob thing won't get him anywhere. And Bella doesn't like it. Bella wants him to chill, so he chills. He does what she wants. She's in the drivers seat.


Hope you don't think I am saying there is something wrong with Edward in the drivers seat. It seems normal to me as well. Infact that is what I have been trying to get across all along. I also agree that every now and then Bella gets to drive too.


Jadey, really take a look at fire and ice from Eclipes. He really does say that...
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Jazz Girl » Thu May 14, 2009 11:38 am

The Dark Knight wrote:Great post folks,

Let me see if I can do them justice with replies.

Jazz Girl wrote:Dark Knight~, I can see your POV, but I don't agree with it. The power to destroy doesn't give someone control over something any more or less so than it gives power to the person who allows it to be destroyed. But, that point is moot in this case, in my opinion. Bella also had the power to destroy the realtionship, more so even than Edward I think, because Edward honestly didn't really have a breaking point. Edward would have dealt with anything, put up with any behavior, swallowed every bitter pill he had to to protect Bella and keep her happy. Look at what he puts up with in Eclipse. Does he react to it? Yes, and as well he should. But, in Eclipse, Edward, in his quest to atone for the sin of leaving the woman he loves, repeatedly swallows every ounce of anger and bitterness and jealousy that he is rightfully entitled to feel, doing nothing and saying nothing about the hurt Bella is inflicting on him through her actions with Jacob.

The base concept of dominance comes down to control, not destruction. Who has the control? Who wields the control? And, who yeilds the control? And, in all honesty, the balance of power and control shifts after New Moon. In Twilight and New Moon, it is clearly Edward driving the relationship and Bella trying to find her footing and keep up. After teh reconcilliation in New Moon, Bella pretty much has all of the emotional power in the relationship because Edward, regardless of his own feelings is always eventually going to give in to Bella. Bella stands firm on all of the things she stands and fights for. Edward caves every time. Seeing Jacob. Spending time at LaPush. Turning Bella. Making love while she is mortal. Carrying and giving birth to Renesmee. Yes, Edward might have the physical power in the relationship until Bella is turned. But he will never use it against her. In relationships, it is the emotional power that counts, and it is Bella that has all of that.


Jazz Girl, your comment of, The power to destroy doesn't give someone control over something any more or less so than it gives power to the person who allows it to be destroyed. gives me great concern. By definition in logic or psychology the ultimate form of control has always been defined this way. These are not my opinions but based on academic main stream standards. Thus, your statement above makes no sense to me. There are many such universal truths like:

Self interest governs all.
Love knows no bounds.
Chaos will consume itself.


Just to name a few. Your argument does not hold water because of this. Feel free to differ on this if you like.

The next part I beg to differ on is Edward honestly didn't really have a breaking point. Edward proves in New Moon his only breaking point is the death of Bella. I dare say that because of this being tested he changes his POV about Bella and the end game he has for them. I make that point in another post about motives.

Edward is subtle and knows what he wants and will do anything to get it. As such he does get the girl in the end…


Dark Knight~ No definition, basic English, psychological or otherwise, of the word or concept of control has ever mentioned the idea of destruction in it. So, I would be interested to see your sources. But, either way, my bigger point was that both Edward & Bella hold the power to destroy the relationship, as is true in all relationships, but neither is going to use that power. So saying one has it over the other or vice versa is a moot point.

And, as for Edward's lack of a breaking point, that is my point. Edward can deal with anything, anything except Bella's death. So, he is willing to do whatever is necessary, accept any consequences, actions, thoughts, feelings, situations, behaviors, whatever, as long as Bella is alive. Even if that means that, in the end, she ends up with Jacob or Mike Newton or Eric Yorkey or whomever else it might be. Yes, that that breaking point is identified and tested in New Moon does change his perspective. He knows that he will do absolutely everything in his power to keep her alive, even if it means letting her play with werewolves, have babies with Jacob or whatever else he has to endure. That fact shifts the power in the relationship from Edward to Bella. In the end, he gets the girl because the girl wants him.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby ringswraith » Thu May 14, 2009 11:39 am

The Dark Knight: I believe you've taken a different point of view of that conversation in Fire and Ice. It seems to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) that this chapter makes it sound like Edward is playing a game, being the nice guy to get what he wants- Bella.

I read that differently. When Jacob asks "So when did you decide... to be the nice guy?" (sorry, paraphrasing as I don't have my books with me now), I understood the question to be "So when did you decide to be nice and let her do what she wanted?"- which was to see Jacob. And Edward replies along the lines of seeing how he was driving Bella to extremes to prove a point- that Jacob is a friend, and safe to be around with- and it seemed best not to do that anymore. Simple question, simple answer, without the loaded meanings you see in them. (Not saying you're wrong, just where we differ in interpretation.)

I also think this because I believe your motive for Edward is wrong. He already has Bella. At this point, all he wants is to keep her safe- safe from everything that conspires against her, preferably with his own hands. (Witness the scene in the clearing, where Jasper gives lessons to the family and the Pack- when Bella mentions she feels as if Victoria is watching her now.) He believes that werwolves- young ones especially- "constitute a risk" and tries to keep Bella from going to La Push, where he can't protect her. When Bella goes through all her shenanigans just to see Jacob, he later relents, accepting that she's right- he's safe- and does the nice thing and lets her go.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby Dovrebanen » Thu May 14, 2009 11:59 am

The Dark KnightHummm, your first point is partially true, as I stated in the motive post, Edward changes his POV on Bella after the Clock Tower. So his view on Bella being apart of the family does change. It was argue to me that he made the decision after the Baseball Game to have her apart of the Family, but IMHO is was after the clock tower…your thoughts?

I think that Edward made the decision to have Bella as a part of his family when it was forced upon him. I don't think it happened after the clock tower. Remember during the vote? Edward actually broke a TV anger because of how the vote went. he didn't want her to become a vampire. I don't see that he honestly wanted it until there was no way around. Even during their honeymoon I think he was hoping to change her mind, or at least postpone it. With Nessie on the way he realized that there was no other way.



The Dark KnightHow very interesting, you may need to reread Eclipse, The chapter Fire and Ice. It talks directly to Edward having a plan of being the “Nice Guy.” It also talks about Edward and Jacob fight over Bella with many insights on how they are both playing the game. This is likely to change your viewpoint.

*****
Thankfully ringswraith filled me in on the chapter in Eclipse. I don't have time to read it at the moment as real life gets in the way :D But I agree with his interpretation on this one. Edward didn't have a plan to play the nice guy. He just decided to lighten up and let Bella make her own choices. He saw that Bella was smart enough to make an informed choice as to whether she spent time with Jacob or not. And Edward made sure that he could see her off and pick her up.
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I agree with you that Bella had no reason to leave. She was happy and getting most of what she wanted. I would again disagree that Edward had no breaking point. The death of Bella is his breaking point. New Moon proves that too us as he goes to the Votaries to die. A side note, Charlie does snap at Edward and places many limitations on him; it is likely he even thought of wounding Edward…

I love the continued view point of “Because Edward always understood.” That is given often with out backing to why Edward does this. What is his real motive? I contend and have yet to be discredited that his motive after the Clock tower was to win Bella. He all but admits it in the tent that he is playing that hard to win her hand. I dare say that with Edward’s special ability he has had decades to view how the human mind works. Jacob evens speaks to this in the tent. Edward’s motives to manipulate the events to his advantage to gain what he wants (Bella), is clear to me. Are you denying this is his true motive? If so help me understand what you think is his true motives are…
Yes, Edward has one breaking point. That is Bella's death. We saw that in NM. I was sort of keeping that possibility out of the picture and focusing on breaking point in relation to what Bella could do to him and how she could hurt him. And here I still hold my opinion that he doesn't have one. Bella can ask him to leave and he will. It doesn't matter that Bella won't do that. He both wants and fears that she will one day ask him to leave, and he will do it as long as it makes her happy. Bella can kiss Jacob, and Edward will still be there. Bella can run off to La Push, and Edward will still be there for her. Anything Bella wants, she gets. As for his motives... Keeping Bella safe and happy is his main motive in my opinion. It it wasn't he would not have left in NM, and he would have changed her as soon as he had the chance to make sure that she stayed with him forever. So yes, I am denying that Edward has a manipulative motive. He does know how the human mind works, but he doesn't know Bella's as well. And in my opinion, he would never manipulate her into anything. From the point of the Fire & Ice chapter it becomes clear that Edward will fight for Bella. But that is fairly late in the book, so much time has passed where he still didn't see himself as worthy. In that chapter we see that he will stand up for what is his. And Bella was his all along. But this does not mean that he wants her to become immortal or that he wants her if that's not what makes her happy. Bella happy would always be his main priority, and I think if that happiness happened to be with Jacob, he would give it to her.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby diane771 » Thu May 14, 2009 2:24 pm

Yes, Edward has one breaking point. That is Bella's death. We saw that in NM. I was sort of keeping that possibility out of the picture and focusing on breaking point in relation to what Bella could do to him and how she could hurt him. And here I still hold my opinion that he doesn't have one. Bella can ask him to leave and he will. It doesn't matter that Bella won't do that. He both wants and fears that she will one day ask him to leave, and he will do it as long as it makes her happy. Bella can kiss Jacob, and Edward will still be there. Bella can run off to La Push, and Edward will still be there for her. Anything Bella wants, she gets. As for his motives... Keeping Bella safe and happy is his main motive in my opinion. It it wasn't he would not have left in NM, and he would have changed her as soon as he had the chance to make sure that she stayed with him forever. So yes, I am denying that Edward has a manipulative motive. He does know how the human mind works, but he doesn't know Bella's as well. And in my opinion, he would never manipulate her into anything. From the point of the Fire & Ice chapter it becomes clear that Edward will fight for Bella. But that is fairly late in the book, so much time has passed where he still didn't see himself as worthy. In that chapter we see that he will stand up for what is his. And Bella was his all along. But this does not mean that he wants her to become immortal or that he wants her if that's not what makes her happy. Bella happy would always be his main priority, and I think if that happiness happened to be with Jacob, he would give it to her.
Great job Dovrebanen

Dark Knight~ No definition, basic English, psychological or otherwise, of the word or concept of control has ever mentioned the idea of destruction in it. So, I would be interested to see your sources. But, either way, my bigger point was that both Edward & Bella hold the power to destroy the relationship, as is true in all relationships, but neither is going to use that power. So saying one has it over the other or vice versa is a moot point.
Jazz, I tried to find that in my books, it just isn't there! So I guess we wait for Dark Knight to let us know.

[color=#FF0000]Leavign Bella is by defintion an act of control, albeit not the best decision he is ever to make. I truly think his leaving is a knee jerk reaction that not all the Cullen's agreed with but did support for Edwards sake.[/color]
Well how can you call an intelligent, selfless decision of loving someone more than anything, and by loving them so much it comes down to either you leaving or you staying and putting the person you love in more danger? I just don't see your way of thinking its just not logical. It took Edward days to make that decision because he was going to leave the best thing that ever happened to him. How is that controling when the person you love has blinders on? Did your parents tell you something that you didn't like but when you think about it now it was for your own good?

Let us come to a straight out the book point that is not disputable. Edward is a bad guy. Yep, I said it. He states it often in Twilight; he admits he wanted to kill Bella on more than one occasion. He admits to murder. He commits grand theft. These are facts that are not disputable. I for one think his leaving Bella in NM a high crime. His selfish attitude nearly cost Bella her life to Lawrence and later to Victoria. It was only due to the fates that she lived at all. So, to me he is a bad guy, albeit with some good traits. I’m sure this section will get some responses. I look forward to seeing fact based opinions on this…

Edward had killed people before, but he had changed, he never killed someone just for food, Don't you believe people can change?? Yes he told Bella that he wanted to kill her, to me that is a man who is honest enough to let them know how he feels, and yet she saw the good in him and said it didn't matter. Did he ever try and kill her? No ! A high crime as I said before if he stayed and something happened to Bella then you would be saying why didn't he leave after his own brother tried to attack her. So there is no way to please you, but Edward did the right thing and stop saying he left for selfish reasons that is just not true. Yes Laurant did come back and he would have come back anyway even if Edward was there. Since you say Edward was so controling I guess he would have been her 24 hr round the clock jailer and keeping her locked up so she couldn't be away from him, that way Laurant couldn't kill her. She fell for Edward first, she encouraged the relationship, he told her the truth about himself killing and all the dirty laundry, but it didn't matter to Bella so those are the facts Dark Knight. So what other "facts" are you going to tell me about Edward that I know or don't know about in your reading, and I do agree everybody has their opinions and Everybody see's their favorite character in a different light, and this is good and I mean not to demean your thoughts about Edward and Bella, but only show you my feelings and also facts that are in the book and what I stated are facts, I did state opinions of mine if Edward had stayed but the way you go on about how Edward was so wrong about leaving there are two sides to a coin.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby The Dark Knight » Fri May 15, 2009 2:24 am

Jazz Girl wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:Great post folks,

Let me see if I can do them justice with replies.

[quote="Jazz Girl
Dark Knight~ No definition, basic English, psychological or otherwise, of the word or concept of control has ever mentioned the idea of destruction in it. So, I would be interested to see your sources. But, either way, my bigger point was that both Edward & Bella hold the power to destroy the relationship, as is true in all relationships, but neither is going to use that power. So saying one has it over the other or vice versa is a moot point.

And, as for Edward's lack of a breaking point, that is my point. Edward can deal with anything, anything except Bella's death. So, he is willing to do whatever is necessary, accept any consequences, actions, thoughts, feelings, situations, behaviors, whatever, as long as Bella is alive. Even if that means that, in the end, she ends up with Jacob or Mike Newton or Eric Yorkey or whomever else it might be. Yes, that that breaking point is identified and tested in New Moon does change his perspective. He knows that he will do absolutely everything in his power to keep her alive, even if it means letting her play with werewolves, have babies with Jacob or whatever else he has to endure. That fact shifts the power in the relationship from Edward to Bella. In the end, he gets the girl because the girl wants him.


Hummm, it would appear you have never been in a military combat briefing room. Where the psychology of mankind is more than just academic but rather life and death. I assure you the ultimate form of control of a situation has always been the ability to destroy XYZ . The courses I took had a very particular point of view on psychology as you might well understand. History is replete with these events like Gettysburg, Stalingrad and Waterloo. It may seem extreme to you but it is how things are. Check out “Dangerous Liaisons” if you would like to see it played out in a relationship setting.

I am glad we can agree on Edwards only breaking point. Most of the rest of your 2nd paragraph is correct; it does not however explain his motives fully. Yes he wants her to live but for what purpose. His underlying objective is to obtain Bella’s hand in marriage. This is what he wants to have happen (post clock tower). If he has to live without her he would but that is not his motive or reason of putting up with her antics. Does this give Bella a measure of power in the relationship yes it does if she fully understood how to use it. She was young and inexperienced as we saw in the chapter Compromise. The only reason he would tolerate Bella with anyone else is if it was the only way things could turn out for her. He’s deperate in BD when he implores Jacob to try to have a child with her. This is because his breaking point is being pushed (Her Death). Short of that he just doesn’t see her with anyone else but in his fears.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby The Dark Knight » Fri May 15, 2009 2:40 am

ringswraith wrote:The Dark Knight: I believe you've taken a different point of view of that conversation in Fire and Ice. It seems to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) that this chapter makes it sound like Edward is playing a game, being the nice guy to get what he wants- Bella.

I read that differently. When Jacob asks "So when did you decide... to be the nice guy?" (sorry, paraphrasing as I don't have my books with me now), I understood the question to be "So when did you decide to be nice and let her do what she wanted?"- which was to see Jacob. And Edward replies along the lines of seeing how he was driving Bella to extremes to prove a point- that Jacob is a friend, and safe to be around with- and it seemed best not to do that anymore. Simple question, simple answer, without the loaded meanings you see in them. (Not saying you're wrong, just where we differ in interpretation.)

I also think this because I believe your motive for Edward is wrong. He already has Bella. At this point, all he wants is to keep her safe- safe from everything that conspires against her, preferably with his own hands. (Witness the scene in the clearing, where Jasper gives lessons to the family and the Pack- when Bella mentions she feels as if Victoria is watching her now.) He believes that werwolves- young ones especially- "constitute a risk" and tries to keep Bella from going to La Push, where he can't protect her. When Bella goes through all her shenanigans just to see Jacob, he later relents, accepting that she's right- he's safe- and does the nice thing and lets her go.


I can see how you got there but I just re-read that chapter last week and if you take the discussion as a whole that Edward and Jacob had you might see it differently. Also your paraphrasing is off a bit. Wish I had the book close by…have to get it later. As I read it, Jacob was talking about Edward giving him a year to prove Bella could be happy with him. He had a plan, Edward let him in that he had a plan too and that he was playing just as hard as Jacob for Bella. Jacob went on about him playing the nice guy which was giving Edward the upper hand. Edward agreed to this point. At that time Edward was already engaged with Bella and had little reason to fear losing her to Jacob so they had a long discussion that we only caught parts of. It was a nice re-read that gave me the clarity to have this discussion.

By the way Edward was never OK with Bella going to La Push except when he was not able to be there himself to protect her. We see that in the Bonfire scene. I think that he only partially trusted Jacob with Bella’s safety after he got a full look at Jacob’s motives. As for Sam, well that was the real worry.
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Re: Edward and Bella

Postby The Dark Knight » Fri May 15, 2009 3:16 am

Dovrebanen » Thu May 14, 2009 9:59 am
The Dark KnightHummm, your first point is partially true, as I stated in the motive post, Edward changes his POV on Bella after the Clock Tower. So his view on Bella being apart of the family does change. It was argue to me that he made the decision after the Baseball Game to have her apart of the Family, but IMHO is was after the clock tower…your thoughts?

I think that Edward made the decision to have Bella as a part of his family when it was forced upon him. I don't think it happened after the clock tower. Remember during the vote? Edward actually broke a TV anger because of how the vote went. he didn't want her to become a vampire. I don't see that he honestly wanted it until there was no way around. Even during their honeymoon I think he was hoping to change her mind, or at least postpone it. With Nessie on the way he realized that there was no other way.

> I can’t argue that this maybe the point he finally came to this but when I re-read the chapter ‘The race’ he was making several statements that lead me to believe he had already decided to come back for her. It’s very hard to point a finger at anyone place in the book and say right here is when that decision happened. So you may be right but it happened in those few days for sure.

The Dark KnightHow very interesting, you may need to reread Eclipse, The chapter Fire and Ice. It talks directly to Edward having a plan of being the “Nice Guy.” It also talks about Edward and Jacob fight over Bella with many insights on how they are both playing the game. This is likely to change your viewpoint.

*****
Thankfully ringswraith filled me in on the chapter in Eclipse. I don't have time to read it at the moment as real life gets in the way But I agree with his interpretation on this one. Edward didn't have a plan to play the nice guy. He just decided to lighten up and let Bella make her own choices. He saw that Bella was smart enough to make an informed choice as to whether she spent time with Jacob or not. And Edward made sure that he could see her off and pick her up.

> As I replied to ringswriath, I think he maybe wrong about the way he is remembering it. See my reply to him…Actually at that point they where engaged, so he didn’t fear Jacob winning anyway…
*****
[color=#8040FF]The Dark Knight
I agree with you that Bella had no reason to leave. She was happy and getting most of what she wanted. I would again disagree that Edward had no breaking point. The death of Bella is his breaking point. New Moon proves that too us as he goes to the Votaries to die. A side note, Charlie does snap at Edward and places many limitations on him; it is likely he even thought of wounding Edward…


I love the continued view point of “Because Edward always understood.” That is given often with out backing to why Edward does this. What is his real motive? I contend and have yet to be discredited that his motive after the Clock tower was to win Bella. He all but admits it in the tent that he is playing that hard to win her hand. I dare say that with Edward’s special ability he has had decades to view how the human mind works. Jacob evens speaks to this in the tent. Edward’s motives to manipulate the events to his advantage to gain what he wants (Bella), is clear to me. Are you denying this is his true motive? If so help me understand what you think is his true motives are…[/color]

Yes, Edward has one breaking point. That is Bella's death. We saw that in NM. I was sort of keeping that possibility out of the picture and focusing on breaking point in relation to what Bella could do to him and how she could hurt him. And here I still hold my opinion that he doesn't have one. Bella can ask him to leave and he will. It doesn't matter that Bella won't do that. He both wants and fears that she will one day ask him to leave, and he will do it as long as it makes her happy. Bella can kiss Jacob, and Edward will still be there. Bella can run off to La Push, and Edward will still be there for her. Anything Bella wants, she gets. As for his motives... Keeping Bella safe and happy is his main motive in my opinion. It it wasn't he would not have left in NM, and he would have changed her as soon as he had the chance to make sure that she stayed with him forever. So yes, I am denying that Edward has a manipulative motive. He does know how the human mind works, but he doesn't know Bella's as well. And in my opinion, he would never manipulate her into anything. From the point of the Fire & Ice chapter it becomes clear that Edward will fight for Bella. But that is fairly late in the book, so much time has passed where he still didn't see himself as worthy. In that chapter we see that he will stand up for what is his. And Bella was his all along. But this does not mean that he wants her to become immortal or that he wants her if that's not what makes her happy. Bella happy would always be his main priority, and I think if that happiness happened to be with Jacob, he would give it to her.
< Well if you’re going to leave out Edwards’s breaking point; we might as well leave out the point that he’s a vampire. To me they are huge factors that can’t be left out when looking at Bella and Edward’s relationship. Just for the record, I agree that Edward’s major motives are Bella’s safety, her happiness and then Edward & Bella forever, in this order. Well for the most part, there are a few places where they get a little gray at times which one comes first.

Dovrebanen you say, “in my opinion, he would never manipulate her into anything.” I can not disagree with you more. The whole point to the chapter Compromise is about him manipulating her to get all of what he wants (the car, college and marriage). I’m not sure we can ever see eye to eye on this point if you think he is not manipulating her in this chapter…

Actually in Fire and Ice chapter he has already secured her hand. Also, I think he knows full well how Bella works, (her motives and her mode of operations). He is very clear. By this point in the series Edward has already given into her becoming a vamp and is just trying to by time for her not to miss too much out on being human. Remember he is under a deadline agreement that she has with Carlisle that he thinks he cannot change. He has the lemons and is just trying to make lemonade now.
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