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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Jazz Girl » Mon May 18, 2009 7:16 am

The Dark Knight wrote:• Edward lives his live in fear...Fear is one of the more nasty deadly sins, nothing good comes from fear...Any thoughts?

While I am all for bringing the wisdom of Yoda into any discussion, I think you are being a little obtuse in your observation. I think you are deliberately focusing on the negative again. Fear can also lead to caution. Fear can also beget a willingness to change. And, fear can lead us to confrontation and communication. Yes, Edward lives in fear. He fears one thing and one thing only. He fears hurting Bella, losing Bella. So, his fear makes him cautious whenever he is around her. It gives him the power to curb his overwhelming thirst for her and instead be incalcuably gentle and controlled in her presence. His fear gives him the strength to change his nature, ignoring any instinct, thought or feeling that might lead to losing Bella. And, his fear gives him patience and courage that he never had before. Edward is a man used to doing what he wants, used to seeing and understanding the right course and following it. But, Bella turns that all on its' head because all of his instincts about what is right are wrong where she is concerned. So, his fear gives him the patience and courage to face what's wrong in his typical behavior and the courage to change it for the better.

The Dark Knight wrote:• Edward thinks of himself as selfish. I see this as more a fact than others. In the 90 years leading up to this short period of time (that we see through the filters of Bella, who only wants to see him in a good light) he could be exactly what he states he is. We have little back story on him. He talks about being a killer and his monster just under the surface (See Twilight in the Biology lab) is very much who he is. If we take the filters off, we might see a darker side to Edward, and who he truly is.

I do not argue that Edward sees himself as selfish. As you state, it is fact that that is how he sees himself. What I argue is that he is. No, we don't have much of his backstory. What we have are his deeds, as well as a way to compare what Bella sees to what he is thinking and feeling. MS provides that for us, giving us the unique ability to look at the same conversations and events through two sets of eyes. When he talks of being a killer, a monster, that is his own skewed view of himself. He loathes what he is because it hurts others and puts them in danger. But, let's look at what we know to be his most monstrous time, most monstrous act. His "rebellion" against Carlisle and the veggie lifestyle. Did he go on random killing sprees, consuming any and all humans who appealed to him? Absolutely not. Even in his darkest times, he hunted only those who would harm others, who were themselves dangerous and evil. And, even that is not arbitrary. Edward had absolute knowledge that the men he was hunting were in fact evil, were rapists and murderers. The very act of living Carlisle's lifestyle, denying his basest and most feral instinct proves how selfless he is. It is unfair to read the question, and to ignore all of the arguments that were posted after.

The Dark Knight wrote:• Knives, is right about him being controlling. That is his nature.

Or so you say... Summary statements do not make good arguments. If you want to discuss, than discuss. This isn't a fact and there are many here who would argue with you, if you choose to open that door.

The Dark Knight wrote:• Bella seems to be in a perpetual state of lust. She dazzled, breathless, attacking him sexually and willing to do just about anything to get him on his back, to steal a phrase. The one and only things she really wants is sex form him. If that’s not lustful I just don’t know what is.

A 17/18 year old young woman with a boyfriend/husband who she readily describes as the most beautiful creature ever put on Earth. Yes, it is a horrible and unrealistic thing that she is attracted to him physically. Good grief! Yes, Bella wants to have a physical relationship with the man she loves. Last time I checked, that is, in fact, a pretty natural and typical part of a relationship. But, to contend that becasue we witness the evolution of their physical as well as emotional relationship, that the only thing she wants from him is sex is just...assinine. First, Bella is a healthy, typical adolescent young woman, experiencing all the growing pains and hormonse that we all experienced. Guess what? I wanted to have sex with my boyfriend when I was 17, too. I wanted to have sex with the man who became my husband when I was 18. Does that mean that I only wanted sex from him. Absolutely not. It is my opinion that you see this because you discount the intensity and reality (and I mean that in terms of it's existence within the story, not that the relationship itelf would translate to our reality) of the love between Edward & Bella. Without that love, than yes, I suppose it could look like Bella's just looking to score some vampy mattress time, see what all the hullabaloo in the Cullen house seems to be about. But, if that were true, than she would have reconsidered everything before James even came along to throw his monkey in the wrench. Remember, she asks Edward straight out about sex. It happens just after the meadow, I think (forgive, no books). She asks Edward about Rose & Em's relationship, if vampire marriages are just like "regular" marriages. She talks around it, but Edward figures out what she's getting at. He asks her if she's wondering if it will be like that for them. And, he tells her point blank that they can never go that far because he cannot let go of his control around her because he could kill her. If bedding the man was all she was interested in, that would have been the end of that. Bella does not see sex as the last and ultimate goal of the relationship, but as a natural part of the lasting relationship she wants with the man she loves more than anything and intends to literally spend forever with.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby The Dark Knight » Mon May 18, 2009 7:39 am

Brumfondl wrote:Hmm, I don't really see Edward going out and masacring a whole village of sand people just to get his mother back (ok, maybe killing off the village but his mother has been dead for 90 years and I am pretty sure that he has gotten over it) but I do get the idea.

So, we see fear, (self) loathing and a missed opportunity for visiting Las Vegas. Sounds like a good basis for a movie to me, but I digress.

Ok, so Edward WAS afraid, and I spose that even after the Volturi leave in BD there would always be the nagging suspicion that they would come back to get the Cullens, either as a whole or picking them off one by one, but I am sure that he could push that to the back of his vast mind and focus on happy instead. All his fears for Bella had been dispelled. She sure wasn't going to leave him after the transformation (this IS a love story, remember, 'Bella and Edward get married but it ends in a messy divorce' just ain't gunna sell that well) and his only real worry would be that she might break something off with her super strength (ouchies) so I think fear is pretty much on the back burner by the end there.

(Sorry for the tone of this post but I am in a good mood for some unknown reason... possibly cos I am just reading Bella's first day as a vamp and I really love this part of the books)



Have you read the outtake that SM wrote about Bella, Edward and Alice day in Vegas on the way home after Twilight. It's on the lexicon part of SM interviews and such. nice little read if you get time...
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby The Dark Knight » Mon May 18, 2009 8:07 am

Jazz Girl wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:• Edward lives his live in fear...Fear is one of the more nasty deadly sins, nothing good comes from fear...Any thoughts?

While I am all for bringing the wisdom of Yoda into any discussion, I think you are being a little obtuse in your observation. I think you are deliberately focusing on the negative again. Fear can also lead to caution. Fear can also beget a willingness to change. And, fear can lead us to confrontation and communication. Yes, Edward lives in fear. He fears one thing and one thing only. He fears hurting Bella, losing Bella. So, his fear makes him cautious whenever he is around her. It gives him the power to curb his overwhelming thirst for her and instead be incalcuably gentle and controlled in her presence. His fear gives him the strength to change his nature, ignoring any instinct, thought or feeling that might lead to losing Bella. And, his fear gives him patience and courage that he never had before. Edward is a man used to doing what he wants, used to seeing and understanding the right course and following it. But, Bella turns that all on its' head because all of his instincts about what is right are wrong where she is concerned. So, his fear gives him the patience and courage to face what's wrong in his typical behavior and the courage to change it for the better.


Maybe fear does drive him; it did in New Moon to leave her. We both agree that was not the best decision ever. Fear is an unhealthy response but as you point out it can be turned to something good. However being cautious is not the same as being afraid. These two emotional responses come out quiet different. Fear is a mind killer that causes irrational responses where caution makes you keener. Seen these in action in real life up close and personal.

The Dark Knight wrote:• Edward thinks of himself as selfish. I see this as more a fact than others. In the 90 years leading up to this short period of time (that we see through the filters of Bella, who only wants to see him in a good light) he could be exactly what he states he is. We have little back story on him. He talks about being a killer and his monster just under the surface (See Twilight in the Biology lab) is very much who he is. If we take the filters off, we might see a darker side to Edward, and who he truly is.

I do not argue that Edward sees himself as selfish. As you state, it is fact that that is how he sees himself. What I argue is that he is. No, we don't have much of his backstory. What we have are his deeds, as well as a way to compare what Bella sees to what he is thinking and feeling. MS provides that for us, giving us the unique ability to look at the same conversations and events through two sets of eyes. When he talks of being a killer, a monster, that is his own skewed view of himself. He loathes what he is because it hurts others and puts them in danger. But, let's look at what we know to be his most monstrous time, most monstrous act. His "rebellion" against Carlisle and the veggie lifestyle. Did he go on random killing sprees, consuming any and all humans who appealed to him? Absolutely not. Even in his darkest times, he hunted only those who would harm others, who were themselves dangerous and evil. And, even that is not arbitrary. Edward had absolute knowledge that the men he was hunting were in fact evil, were rapists and murderers. The very act of living Carlisle's lifestyle, denying his basest and most feral instinct proves how selfless he is. It is unfair to read the question, and to ignore all of the arguments that were posted after.[/quote]

Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of a vampire. Remember the whole biology class in MS, where the monster almost got the upper hand. How many ways did he contemplate killing Bella and everyone else? It seemed very real and more natural for him. He barely made it through that one.

On a lighter note, you might find this one funny too. How selfish is Edward to not share himself with the ladies. 90 years of being a tease, poor Rose, Tanya and countless others that would have been more fulfilled by him. What a waste of good times...Truly a selfish act in my book. Wouldn’t you agree?:lol:




The Dark Knight wrote:• Knives, is right about him being controlling. That is his nature.

Or so you say... Summary statements do not make good arguments. If you want to discuss, than discuss. This isn't a fact and there are many here who would argue with you, if you choose to open that door.[/quote]

Actually I think we have agrued that point a lot ove that last few weeks on and off. Feel free to start it again if you like.

The Dark Knight wrote:• Bella seems to be in a perpetual state of lust. She dazzled, breathless, attacking him sexually and willing to do just about anything to get him on his back, to steal a phrase. The one and only things she really wants is sex form him. If that’s not lustful I just don’t know what is.

A 17/18 year old young woman with a boyfriend/husband who she readily describes as the most beautiful creature ever put on Earth. Yes, it is a horrible and unrealistic thing that she is attracted to him physically. Good grief! Yes, Bella wants to have a physical relationship with the man she loves. Last time I checked, that is, in fact, a pretty natural and typical part of a relationship. But, to contend that becasue we witness the evolution of their physical as well as emotional relationship, that the only thing she wants from him is sex is just...assinine. First, Bella is a healthy, typical adolescent young woman, experiencing all the growing pains and hormonse that we all experienced. Guess what? I wanted to have sex with my boyfriend when I was 17, too. I wanted to have sex with the man who became my husband when I was 18. Does that mean that I only wanted sex from him. Absolutely not. It is my opinion that you see this because you discount the intensity and reality (and I mean that in terms of it's existence within the story, not that the relationship itelf would translate to our reality) of the love between Edward & Bella. Without that love, than yes, I suppose it could look like Bella's just looking to score some vampy mattress time, see what all the hullabaloo in the Cullen house seems to be about. But, if that were true, than she would have reconsidered everything before James even came along to throw his monkey in the wrench. Remember, she asks Edward straight out about sex. It happens just after the meadow, I think (forgive, no books). She asks Edward about Rose & Em's relationship, if vampire marriages are just like "regular" marriages. She talks around it, but Edward figures out what she's getting at. He asks her if she's wondering if it will be like that for them. And, he tells her point blank that they can never go that far because he cannot let go of his control around her because he could kill her. If bedding the man was all she was interested in, that would have been the end of that. Bella does not see sex as the last and ultimate goal of the relationship, but as a natural part of the lasting relationship she wants with the man she loves more than anything and intends to literally spend forever with. [/quote]

Ok, here you seem to think I find her lust a bad thing. I can't agree more that her behavior is spot on. It just one of the more funny parts of the books for me. Her frist several attempts to kiss him (first attacking him just after the meadwo and them fainting at the bottom of the steps) is priceless.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Brumfondl » Mon May 18, 2009 8:09 am

Thanks for that little reminder. I do remember the spectacular gambling session, especially Alice :D

Oh well, I'm not going to go edit my original post to work that in but I do kind of wish I had remembered that story earlier. That whole line about fear and loathing really would have snapped :(

Oh, and while Edward could be utterly selfless, transforming Bella was still a completely selfish act. He was the one to gain the most out of it. Bella was his life so he did his darndest to keep her around when the time came.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby The Dark Knight » Mon May 18, 2009 8:17 am

Brumfondl wrote:Thanks for that little reminder. I do remember the spectacular gambling session, especially Alice :D

Oh well, I'm not going to go edit my original post to work that in but I do kind of wish I had remembered that story earlier. That whole line about fear and loathing really would have snapped :(

Oh, and while Edward could be utterly selfless, transforming Bella was still a completely selfish act. He was the one to gain the most out of it. Bella was his life so he did his darndest to keep her around when the time came.


Glad you seen that bit of great humor...Alice is so cool, just want to wrap her up and take her home sometimes.

I agree that Edward transforming Bella was selfish, at least in my book. Kind of getting the cake and eating it too... 8-)
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Jazz Girl » Mon May 18, 2009 9:23 am

Dark Knight~ Your sarcastic charm just makes me :D sometimes. At others, just completely fracking :lol: .

The Dark Knight wrote:
Jazz Girl wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:• Edward lives his live in fear...Fear is one of the more nasty deadly sins, nothing good comes from fear...Any thoughts?

While I am all for bringing the wisdom of Yoda into any discussion, I think you are being a little obtuse in your observation. I think you are deliberately focusing on the negative again. Fear can also lead to caution. Fear can also beget a willingness to change. And, fear can lead us to confrontation and communication. Yes, Edward lives in fear. He fears one thing and one thing only. He fears hurting Bella, losing Bella. So, his fear makes him cautious whenever he is around her. It gives him the power to curb his overwhelming thirst for her and instead be incalcuably gentle and controlled in her presence. His fear gives him the strength to change his nature, ignoring any instinct, thought or feeling that might lead to losing Bella. And, his fear gives him patience and courage that he never had before. Edward is a man used to doing what he wants, used to seeing and understanding the right course and following it. But, Bella turns that all on its' head because all of his instincts about what is right are wrong where she is concerned. So, his fear gives him the patience and courage to face what's wrong in his typical behavior and the courage to change it for the better.


Maybe fear does drive him; it did in New Moon to leave her. We both agree that was not the best decision ever. Fear is an unhealthy response but as you point out it can be turned to something good. However being cautious is not the same as being afraid. These two emotional responses come out quiet different. Fear is a mind killer that causes irrational responses where caution makes you keener. Seen these in action in real life up close and personal.

Yes, but again, applying military concepts and psychology to romantic relationships still seems just a bit extreme to me. Edward is not fighting a horde of crazed vampires, at least not in this case. He is battling himself. The applications and implications of fear in that case are much different.

The Dark Knight wrote:
JazzGirl wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:• Edward thinks of himself as selfish. I see this as more a fact than others. In the 90 years leading up to this short period of time (that we see through the filters of Bella, who only wants to see him in a good light) he could be exactly what he states he is. We have little back story on him. He talks about being a killer and his monster just under the surface (See Twilight in the Biology lab) is very much who he is. If we take the filters off, we might see a darker side to Edward, and who he truly is.

I do not argue that Edward sees himself as selfish. As you state, it is fact that that is how he sees himself. What I argue is that he is. No, we don't have much of his backstory. What we have are his deeds, as well as a way to compare what Bella sees to what he is thinking and feeling. MS provides that for us, giving us the unique ability to look at the same conversations and events through two sets of eyes. When he talks of being a killer, a monster, that is his own skewed view of himself. He loathes what he is because it hurts others and puts them in danger. But, let's look at what we know to be his most monstrous time, most monstrous act. His "rebellion" against Carlisle and the veggie lifestyle. Did he go on random killing sprees, consuming any and all humans who appealed to him? Absolutely not. Even in his darkest times, he hunted only those who would harm others, who were themselves dangerous and evil. And, even that is not arbitrary. Edward had absolute knowledge that the men he was hunting were in fact evil, were rapists and murderers. The very act of living Carlisle's lifestyle, denying his basest and most feral instinct proves how selfless he is. It is unfair to read the question, and to ignore all of the arguments that were posted after.


Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of a vampire. Remember the whole biology class in MS, where the monster almost got the upper hand. How many ways did he contemplate killing Bella and everyone else? It seemed very real and more natural for him. He barely made it through that one.

On a lighter note, you might find this one funny too. How selfish is Edward to not share himself with the ladies. 90 years of being a tease, poor Rose, Tanya and countless others that would have been more fulfilled by him. What a waste of good times...Truly a selfish act in my book. Wouldn’t you agree?:lol:

But, it comes right down to the fact that he didn't kill her. And, he didn't transform her until he absolutely HAD to to save her existence. Yes, he benefits from transforming her, but it is what she wants, what she pleads with him for from almost the very beginning. And, Bella, not Edward gets the most out of the trade. She is made immortal, more beautiful, stronger physically, gains the family she wants, has the child she never knew she wanted with the man she loves more than anything and gets to keep her wolfie best friend.

As for Edward's selfishness in keeping himself away from the rest of the female population of the world for 90 years, yes, that one I will DEFINITELY grant you as a most selfish act....but that's a whole other post for a whole other thread... :twisted:



The Dark Knight wrote:
JazzGirl wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:• Bella seems to be in a perpetual state of lust. She dazzled, breathless, attacking him sexually and willing to do just about anything to get him on his back, to steal a phrase. The one and only things she really wants is sex form him. If that’s not lustful I just don’t know what is.

A 17/18 year old young woman with a boyfriend/husband who she readily describes as the most beautiful creature ever put on Earth. Yes, it is a horrible and unrealistic thing that she is attracted to him physically. Good grief! Yes, Bella wants to have a physical relationship with the man she loves. Last time I checked, that is, in fact, a pretty natural and typical part of a relationship. But, to contend that becasue we witness the evolution of their physical as well as emotional relationship, that the only thing she wants from him is sex is just...assinine. First, Bella is a healthy, typical adolescent young woman, experiencing all the growing pains and hormonse that we all experienced. Guess what? I wanted to have sex with my boyfriend when I was 17, too. I wanted to have sex with the man who became my husband when I was 18. Does that mean that I only wanted sex from him. Absolutely not. It is my opinion that you see this because you discount the intensity and reality (and I mean that in terms of it's existence within the story, not that the relationship itelf would translate to our reality) of the love between Edward & Bella. Without that love, than yes, I suppose it could look like Bella's just looking to score some vampy mattress time, see what all the hullabaloo in the Cullen house seems to be about. But, if that were true, than she would have reconsidered everything before James even came along to throw his monkey in the wrench. Remember, she asks Edward straight out about sex. It happens just after the meadow, I think (forgive, no books). She asks Edward about Rose & Em's relationship, if vampire marriages are just like "regular" marriages. She talks around it, but Edward figures out what she's getting at. He asks her if she's wondering if it will be like that for them. And, he tells her point blank that they can never go that far because he cannot let go of his control around her because he could kill her. If bedding the man was all she was interested in, that would have been the end of that. Bella does not see sex as the last and ultimate goal of the relationship, but as a natural part of the lasting relationship she wants with the man she loves more than anything and intends to literally spend forever with.


Ok, here you seem to think I find her lust a bad thing. I can't agree more that her behavior is spot on. It just one of the more funny parts of the books for me. Her frist several attempts to kiss him (first attacking him just after the meadwo and them fainting at the bottom of the steps) is priceless.

Forgive me. I've been up since 3:30 after going to bed at 1:30, and I haven't had my full pot o coffee just yet. By the time I got to the end of your post, the sarcasm was lost on me. My humble apologies. I do totally agree with you. Her attempts at seduction are just bloody hysterical sometimes. But, Edward's responses are even better. "Bella. Will you please stop trying to take your clothes off." :lol: Find me another 17-year-old virgin male who you would EVER catch saying that! TeeHee!
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby The Dark Knight » Mon May 18, 2009 9:36 am

Jazz Girl Wrote
As for Edward's selfishness in keeping himself away from the rest of the female population of the world for 90 years, yes, that one I will DEFINITELY grant you as a most selfish act....but that's a whole other post for a whole other thread...

yah i read a few of those threads...that'w kind of why I tossed that one out there. New you couldn't help but to sink your teeth in him on that one... :shock:

You don't like my military concepts, ahhh come on, the conquest of women and the conquest of territory have been the male occupation for a few milenium now... Such sweat dreams are made of these...

jazz girl wrote:

Forgive me. I've been up since 3:30 after going to bed at 1:30, and I haven't had my full pot o coffee just yet. By the time I got to the end of your post, the sarcasm was lost on me. My humble apologies. I do totally agree with you. Her attempts at seduction are just bloody hysterical sometimes. But, Edward's responses are even better. "Bella. Will you please stop trying to take your clothes off." Find me another 17-year-old virgin male who you would EVER catch saying that! TeeHee!

Some day I'm have to send you something I wrote a little while back...It's not complete but it will make you laugh..kind of runs along this part...

sorry you didn't get much sleep...I have that trouble often having to switch back & forth form nightshift back to days. Often just don't know if I am coming or going...

keep your chin up, hurts less when you fall asleep at the desk...
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Dovrebanen » Mon May 18, 2009 10:38 am

The Dark Knight wrote:Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of a vampire. Remember the whole biology class in MS, where the monster almost got the upper hand. How many ways did he contemplate killing Bella and everyone else? It seemed very real and more natural for him. He barely made it through that one.

On a lighter note, you might find this one funny too. How selfish is Edward to not share himself with the ladies. 90 years of being a tease, poor Rose, Tanya and countless others that would have been more fulfilled by him. What a waste of good times...Truly a selfish act in my book. Wouldn’t you agree?:lol:

Yes, that is a shame :) He should have kept himself available!

About your point of the biology class: Edward did come close to killing Bella along with all the kids in the room, and later Ms Cope in the office. But that's only natural. He is a vampire, and Bella's blood was more potent to him than any blood he had ever come across. But that was also why he was in so much pain over it. He had resisted for all this time, and now everything was about to fall right out of his hands. Just because Bella Swan moves into town... She is nobody to him, but still she can make him ruin everything they have fought so hard for. The lust for blood never goes away, but he had learned to fight it over the years. And now he felt that he was loosing control. But the point is that he refused to allow the predator inside him to win. Instead he held his breath, and then he removed himself from the situation. I see this as a selfless act, where he acted to protect human life and his family, especially Carlisle who he didn't want to let down.
If Edward was being selfish, he would have asked her to come for a walk in the woods with him. He knew he could charm her into anything just by the way he looked, so it would have been no problem for him at all. And then he could have drunk her blood and nobody would ever know what happened to her. But he didn't do that. He did everything he could to resist. And the shows great strength, and is not the actions of a selfish person.

Jazz Girl wrote: But, Edward's responses are even better. "Bella. Will you please stop trying to take your clothes off." :lol: Find me another 17-year-old virgin male who you would EVER catch saying that! TeeHee!

I had to laugh when I read that comment by Edward. A 17 yeard old guy who has a beautiful girl throwing herself at him, and he tells her to stay dressed :shock: Would never happen in real life.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby December » Mon May 18, 2009 12:16 pm

HOFJ wrote:Bella's safety and protection were, of course, Edward's main focus. But his need to keep her entire life completely risk free at the expense of her free will - that was selfish. It scared him, he didn't like being scared, and he eliminated the thing that was scaring him.

That's a very lucid way of expressing the paradox of this relationship (and love in general). When two people care passionately about one another, selflessness and selfishness get caught in a kind of reflexive loop. Bella cares more about Edward than she does about her own well-being. She would give her life for him (or just to be with him!). Selfless or selfish? After all it's what she wants more than anything else. As for Edward, Bella's well-being is paramount to him, overshadowing all thought of his own needs. It's all he wants. So is he trying to ensure it for her sake or for his own? To my mind there's no simple way to distentangle the two. The infinite regress of true love -- I want your happiness, because it is my happiness, which is your happiness... -- carries on indefinitely. "More than your death, I fear my own," a character in Dorothy Dunnett's Checkmate says to his beloved, "because you would be left here to mourn."

If Bella is more willing to put her life at risk than Edward is (as you rightly point out, HOFJ, the thought paralyzes him with terror), if he needs her safe more than she does, I'm not sure that whether that makes his trying to keep her safe selfish -- or simply bossy ("I know better than you do what is in your best interest"). Certainly he is trying to get his own way, but bossiness is a different vice from selfishness. And, yes, he is trying to get what he wants (not to be in constant terror) even if it means thwarting her. But most of all he wants it for her. The two motives can't really be extricated.

It's worth noting this same selfish selflessness (or selfless selfishness) underlies the larger issue of Edward's opposition to Bella's becoming a vampire. Tennyo cogently argued long ago (and anyone interested in debates over Edward's selflessness might enjoy reading her Ed-Con thread) that there was a kind of selfishness to Edward's seemingly selfless determination to give Bella up in NM rather than risk her becoming a vampire. Yes, the driving thought behind his decision was "I can't bear the idea of seeing her life destroyed; I'd put myself through anything to avoid that," but it's also "I can't bear the idea." If you will suffer acutely over someone else's pain, protecting them is protecting yourself too. Selfless or selfish?

ETA
Sorry -- for some reason I seem to have missed the last page of posts. Apologies that this is now about 18 hours out of date.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby ringswraith » Mon May 18, 2009 12:22 pm

The Dark Knight: Tread lightly with the sexist comments, please.

You don't like my military concepts, ahhh come on, the conquest of women and the conquest of territory have been the male occupation for a few milenium now... Such sweat dreams are made of these...


That just makes it sound like just because they're not male, they don't know better than we do. And I disagree with that kind of sentiment.

Regarding your distinction between fear and caution: That's a mighty fine line. Why are you being cautious? Because you're afraid of something, typically- if you don't do X, Y will happen, and Y must never happen.

All that being said, I'm not sure if I should be amused that people think Edward's being selfish for keeping to himself (i.e., not going out with the ladies) for all that time. I would think it is you guys and gals who are being selfish by asking him to "play more." ;)
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