Edward and Bella 2

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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Dovrebanen » Thu May 21, 2009 4:59 pm

Just to state this at the very start. I truly respect everyone's faith/religion. I am not even going to ask if Dark Knight means accountable to man or to God. Because I am not religious, do not believe in God or the existence of a soul, and so I will answer this based on human accountability/atonement.

I believe that what Edward has done later in his life atoned for his earlier "sins". I don't even want to call it sins. Because it was in his nature. Edward is a predator by nature. He can't help that. He didn't choose this life, it was chosen for him by Carlisle. And the fact that he gave in to those natural desires, does not make it a sin for me. But let's just for arguements sake say that they are sins, because it makes it easier to answer this.
Even when he rebelled against Carlisle he only killed the bad guys. And in doing that he was actually saving lives at the same as he was taking them. This in my opinion, makes what he did better. He could save the lives of young women because of his talent for reading minds, and he would never kill an innocent person. Does this make it right? No, not if you're talking about a normal person. But if you are a predator by nature, it makes it more right and more understandable.

After a while he started to loathe himself for what he did. Like ringswraith said, he didn't want to be a monster. And I believe that towards the end of his rebellious period, he saw a true monster with red eyes when he looked in the mirror. And he didn't want to be that kind of a person. And he asked for forgiveness from Carlisle, who happily welcomed him back. And the fact that Edward showed regret and the will to change is atonement enough for me. It would not be enough if it had been some human serial killer. But with taking Edward's nature into account, it's enough. Ever since he has done all he could to be a good person. And he has never gone back to who he was. And he had not tasted human blood for decades (except Bella's but that was to save her life - twice). He saves Bella's life on several occasions. He's a good son and brother to his family. He's a devoted father to Renesmee. All this is atonement for me.

The Dark Knight wrote: To me Edward is a bad guy. :twisted: To those that give him the pass because he’s a vampire or he was dispensing justice I say this.The soldiers that fight our wars have to kill. They are called to duty to do things that are against our normal society standards. Are they to be excused too? :arrow: You might say yes to this out of hand or respect for them and what they are called to do. But here’s the rub, each sin committed whether justified or not, whether ordered to do so or it just happens leaves a scare on your soul. :oops: Yes they are fighting the enemy and death happens, but does that mean it’s OK?

I do not blame the individual soldiers for what are committed during a war. It is the responsibility of their leaders (presidents etc), who send them there in the first place. They are out there risking their lives for their country, and to call them sinners I find to be disrespectful. Of course there are at times horrible actions committed in the name of war. Actions made by individual soldiers on a power trip. And those actions are sins, without a doubt and should be punished as such. But the soldiers who are out fighting against other soldiers in a war for their country, is not sinners in my opinion. They are following orders, and someone else is responsible for them being there in the first place. So if someone is to be called a sinner it is the persons who initiated the war.

So to conclude my statement: Edward should not still be held accountable for what he did by someone else than himself. You can never run from what you did in life. And the memories of the people he killed will always haunt him in a way. And that has been punishment enough. And in my opinion, Edward should be forgiven for what he did, simply because it is a natural desire for him to drink blood, and because he was able to stop when he saw the monster in himself. To me that proves great strength.
Last edited by Dovrebanen on Thu May 21, 2009 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby diane771 » Thu May 21, 2009 5:31 pm

Atonement - to make amends; amends to make minor alterations for improvement, compensation
accountablity--require to account for one's conduct.
Ok Dark Knight, those words again are sorta of inter changeable like fear and caution. I know you hate Edward but you can do better than this, can't you? :)

Edward did try and make amends (def :atonement) by leading a life that was full of guilt and sorrow for what he had done and for what he thought he was. In those terms 80 yrs of living a life that would be making amends for his sins. I do think and I could be wrong but this
Now for atonement, here’s the only argument that I have found to mitigate sins
I think the accountabilty is the correct term and not atonement. at least what I get out of looking of the definition of the words.

Accountabily Edward never denied what he had done and to full responsablity for those actions, so just in that he has been accountable for those actions. In the dictionary it does not say under accountablilty who they are required to be accountable to. So it could mean themself, it could be how they live their life from then on. So accountablily is again to broad of a term Dark Knight and has no direction of who they are to be accountable to, to brand Edward with this.
Since I have made the case of Atonement for Edward and how he has made his amends, what are your next words or phrases can we hash out. This is fun.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 » Fri May 22, 2009 3:06 pm

Dark Knight, you're dying to see my hypocritical side aren't you? :lol:
That's a very interesting subject. I believe (as a person who is not very religious, but believes in the existence of G-d, and follows her traditions) that, yes, Edward has committed sins. And he thinks of himself as you think of him Dark Knight. But a person's sins, does not make up their personality or who they are in my opinion. It's how you display yourself, and how you handle those sins, or just life in general. Just because he's sinned, doesn't mean he's a terrible person. That would mean most of the people on Earth, are bad people. It sounds far-fetched but, I always thought that there is a little good in everyone. Some just bring out more, and some refuse to use it. I'm not giving Edward a free-pass. Just because I love and admire his character doesn't mean there's something that bothers me a little about him. Like the fact that he always thinks of himself as a monster, a terrible person. And how he allows Bella to do as she pleases and make out with anyone, and he won't even give her hell for it. Once you look beyond a person's past, their past won't matter anymore. Does my post make any sense at all? Probably not. :lol: Go ahead and call me a hypocrite, because I know I must've slipped up somewhere.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby amethyst » Fri May 22, 2009 6:26 pm

What exactly did Edward do that is “sinful” . . . ? I am quite confused.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby diane771 » Fri May 22, 2009 7:44 pm

I think Dark Knight is refering to Killng of people I don't know what Edward stoled so I that is that.
Isn't it in one of the books I think Eclipse Edward said that he would not break one Commandment because he had already broken all of them and that was is virtue and Bella's when she was trying to get him to make love ?
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Dovrebanen » Tue May 26, 2009 1:39 pm

diane771 wrote:I think Dark Knight is refering to Killng of people I don't know what Edward stoled so I that is that.
Isn't it in one of the books I think Eclipse Edward said that he would not break one Commandment because he had already broken all of them and that was is virtue and Bella's when she was trying to get him to make love ?

You're right. His virtue was the only thing that he had left. He said that he had lied, stolen, coveted and killed. I know there are more, but Edward didn't mention the rest, and coming from the most un-religious person in the world, that will have to do :)

Obviously he's killed lots of people. He stole a car in Twilight, didn't he? And he's probably stolen other things as well. And he said that he coveted Bella. "I had no right to want you, but I took you anyway" (something like that). All of the Cullens' lifestyle was based on lies. They had to forge their papers, and lie to people all the time. So these are all what you might call sins. But I agree with MEC. Your post made plenty sense to me. It is not the sins that define who you are. In my opinion what matters is what you do in your life, and if you show regret for the actions that you took. And Edward will probably never forgive himself for giving in to the predator in him.


Mrs.Edward_Cullen<3 wrote:I'm not giving Edward a free-pass. Just because I love and admire his character doesn't mean there's something that bothers me a little about him. Like the fact that he always thinks of himself as a monster, a terrible person. And how he allows Bella to do as she pleases and make out with anyone, and he won't even give her hell for it.

That annoyed me so much with Edward. The fact that he could never see himself as a good person. When Bella said that he saved her life, he attributed that to the fact that he put her life in danger in the first place, and so he was just fixing something that was his fault to begin with. He could never see that he did something truly good.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby edward4ever » Tue May 26, 2009 9:56 pm

Wow! Everybody's talking about sins and atonement...but at the same time saying they are not religious or don't believe in God. ???? What??? Does that make any f**king sense to anyone????? If you don't believe in God, then why do you give a sh*t about sins or atonement???? If you (or Edward) have no one to atone to then why do you give a rats a$$ what you, or anyone else does??? I think you're fooling yourselves. Sin and making amends makes no difference AT ALL if there is no one to answer to. So, if it bothers you, you must believe is something after this life.....

I'm just sayin.....
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby gamb1t » Tue May 26, 2009 10:03 pm

edward4ever wrote:Wow! Everybody's talking about sins and atonement...but at the same time saying they are not religious or don't believe in God. ???? What??? Does that make any f**king sense to anyone????? If you don't believe in God, then why do you give a sh*t about sins or atonement???? If you (or Edward) have no one to atone to then why do you give a rats a$$ what you, or anyone else does??? I think you're fooling yourselves. Sin and making amends makes no difference AT ALL if there is no one to answer to. So, if it bothers you, you must believe is something after this life.....

I'm just sayin.....



I don't really think that's what everyone was hinting at with sins and atonement. Just because someone isn't religious doesn't mean they don't believe there is something else (metaphysics, etc). Also, I believe the sins and atonement just center around that people are responsible for what they do. Otherwise, we would live in anarchy (and some would argue that we do anyway). As with Edward's early lifestyle, I just think he was trying to make the best out of his current situation. It was his own personal self-atonement that he was lacking though, which is why when he found it, he went back to Carlisle. Does that make sense, I was trying to be unbiased either way, but I had a history of science and religion class last year and it was pretty much a semester of this and debating about it lol?
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby edward4ever » Tue May 26, 2009 10:25 pm

gamb1t wrote:I don't really think that's what everyone was hinting at with sins and atonement. Just because someone isn't religious doesn't mean they don't believe there is something else (metaphysics, etc). Also, I believe the sins and atonement just center around that people are responsible for what they do. Otherwise, we would live in anarchy (and some would argue that we do anyway). As with Edward's early lifestyle, I just think he was trying to make the best out of his current situation. It was his own personal self-atonement that he was lacking though, which is why when he found it, he went back to Carlisle. Does that make sense, I was trying to be unbiased either way, but I had a history of science and religion class last year and it was pretty much a semester of this and debating about it lol?

Does metaphysics discuss sins and atonement? I googled it and couldn't really get a straight answer as to what it is, or means. PLUS, "sins" and "atonement" were their words...not mine.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Jazz Girl » Tue May 26, 2009 10:42 pm

gamb1t wrote:
edward4ever wrote:Wow! Everybody's talking about sins and atonement...but at the same time saying they are not religious or don't believe in God. ???? What??? Does that make any f**king sense to anyone????? If you don't believe in God, then why do you give a sh*t about sins or atonement???? If you (or Edward) have no one to atone to then why do you give a rats a$$ what you, or anyone else does??? I think you're fooling yourselves. Sin and making amends makes no difference AT ALL if there is no one to answer to. So, if it bothers you, you must believe is something after this life.....

I'm just sayin.....



I don't really think that's what everyone was hinting at with sins and atonement. Just because someone isn't religious doesn't mean they don't believe there is something else (metaphysics, etc). Also, I believe the sins and atonement just center around that people are responsible for what they do. Otherwise, we would live in anarchy (and some would argue that we do anyway). As with Edward's early lifestyle, I just think he was trying to make the best out of his current situation. It was his own personal self-atonement that he was lacking though, which is why when he found it, he went back to Carlisle. Does that make sense, I was trying to be unbiased either way, but I had a history of science and religion class last year and it was pretty much a semester of this and debating about it lol?


It's pretty clear that Edward believed in a higher power of some kind. Given his age and background, it is more than likely the Christian God. But, I think the larger point is that Edward, while he believed that his soul was gone, still saw what he had to do to survive ie take the lives of others, as monstrous and, of his own accord, continued to do everything he could not only to make up for the sins he had committed previously, but to never commit that wrong again.

Sin is not a concept beholden only to those who believe in God. All major faiths and religions have a term or concept for those actions or behaviors that go against their dogma or tenets of belief. Call it sin. Call it wrong. The term is not the important part. But, I think if we look at it on a human level, obedience of the golden rule, it clarifies the issue a bit. Treat others as you would ask them to treat you. Simple and applicable across the world.

Of course, that opens the door for all of those other "little" wrongs (as opposed to the big one of killing) that Edward and MEC bring up ie lying, coveting, stealing etc. That is where I look at the outcomes and consequences of the action, rather than the action itself. So, I am never one to say that those actions in and of themselves are wrong. But, it's pretty clear that Edward does.

In the end, I think Edward spends almost his entire existence, and I might even argue his whole existence, trying to atone for the wrongs he thinks he has done.
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