Edward and Bella 2

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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby ringswraith » Tue May 26, 2009 11:05 pm

edward4ever wrote:Wow! Everybody's talking about sins and atonement...but at the same time saying they are not religious or don't believe in God. ???? What??? Does that make any f**king sense to anyone????? If you don't believe in God, then why do you give a sh*t about sins or atonement???? If you (or Edward) have no one to atone to then why do you give a rats a$$ what you, or anyone else does??? I think you're fooling yourselves. Sin and making amends makes no difference AT ALL if there is no one to answer to. So, if it bothers you, you must believe is something after this life.....

I'm just sayin.....


For starters, you could be a bit more tactful and respectful in your post.

As has been stated, "sin" is not a concept limited solely to those who beileve in God. You can choose to not believe in any higher power, but still have a moral sense of right and wrong. And even if you didn't have a higher power, you can always answer to yourself.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby edward4ever » Tue May 26, 2009 11:24 pm

edward4ever wrote: So, if it bothers you, you must believe is something after this life.....
I'm just sayin.....

ringswraith wrote:For starters, you could be a bit more tactful and respectful in your post.

You are absolutely right, I apologize for my strong language. :?
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby diane771 » Wed May 27, 2009 12:56 am

Well just incase you missed this post of mine
Atonement - to make amends; amends to make minor alterations for improvement, compensation
accountablity--require to account for one's conduct.
This does not say anything about religion or sin so I tried to use that to reply to our friend but so far he hasn't showed up or responded.
To me I see this
Edward made atonment by changing his life style and not repeating the past indescrections and he did after he realized he did not want to be a monster

Accountablity - Edward never hid what he was he suffered inside himself ever minute of the day. He accepted what he had down and didn't make excuses for his conduct.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Dovrebanen » Wed May 27, 2009 3:29 am

ringswraith wrote:
edward4ever wrote:Wow! Everybody's talking about sins and atonement...but at the same time saying they are not religious or don't believe in God. ???? What??? Does that make any f**king sense to anyone????? If you don't believe in God, then why do you give a sh*t about sins or atonement???? If you (or Edward) have no one to atone to then why do you give a rats a$$ what you, or anyone else does??? I think you're fooling yourselves. Sin and making amends makes no difference AT ALL if there is no one to answer to. So, if it bothers you, you must believe is something after this life.....

I'm just sayin.....


For starters, you could be a bit more tactful and respectful in your post.

As has been stated, "sin" is not a concept limited solely to those who beileve in God. You can choose to not believe in any higher power, but still have a moral sense of right and wrong. And even if you didn't have a higher power, you can always answer to yourself.

Yes, that is what I was trying to convey in my post, ringswraith. Thanks.
I do not believe in God or the ten commandments (?spelling) or any of that. And I doubt that there is something after this life. I respect everyone who believes. And I also said that I didn't want to call it a sin, but for arguments sake I would. But that doesn't mean that I can't discuss it. Edward believed that he had committed sins. He believed that he had broken all of the commandments but one. So I'm was answering based on what Edward believes, not what I believe. I was discussing a book, not my personal beliefs. And in order to do that, I have to address the issue of Edward's soul and his sins, because it's an important part of why he doesn't want Bella to be a vampire.

Having that said, for me sin is not tied to something religious. And we do have someone to answer to when we committ sins/do bad things. We have to answer to ourselves, and to our families and loved ones. And we have to answer to society. And if we commit a crime, we have to answer to the victims of that crime and to the law. That's where we can get forgiveness and closure, or not. That's the way I see sins and atonement as applicable to my world, even if I'm not religious. It's about ethics and morals, and aknowledging you faults and try to make up for them. So I hope you can see where I'm coming from in this, edward4ever, and how I can comment on this even if I don't believe. The words still has meaning for me in the sense of what's right and what's not.

diane771 wrote:Edward made atonment by changing his life style and not repeating the past indescrections and he did after he realized he did not want to be a monster

Accountablity - Edward never hid what he was he suffered inside himself ever minute of the day. He accepted what he had down and didn't make excuses for his conduct.

Agreed 100 % with what you said here, Diane.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Jadey » Wed May 27, 2009 4:26 am

I don't think that Edward really made any sins. He killed people because of what he is.. and I don't blame him for killing people out of frustration and anger. He lied because he had to. He probably stole things cause he had to. He isn't human.. so it's impossible for him to try and go by the commandments. And I don't believe those rules apply to him... or should apply to him. I admire that he wants to stick to them, but he shouldn't blame himself for breaking them because it's not entirely his fault.
He knows he's done wrong, and he can ask for forgiveness if he really means it.
His heart is in the right place.. :lol:
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby Jazz Girl » Wed May 27, 2009 9:35 am

Jadey wrote:I don't think that Edward really made any sins. He killed people because of what he is.. and I don't blame him for killing people out of frustration and anger. He lied because he had to. He probably stole things cause he had to. He isn't human.. so it's impossible for him to try and go by the commandments. And I don't believe those rules apply to him... or should apply to him. I admire that he wants to stick to them, but he shouldn't blame himself for breaking them because it's not entirely his fault.
He knows he's done wrong, and he can ask for forgiveness if he really means it.
His heart is in the right place.. :lol:


I always looked at those "minor sins" ie the lying, stealing, coveting etc, in the same way, Jadey. Though, I can't say I completely agree that the general rules of decent behavior don't apply to Edward, or the Cullens in general. As a part of their existance, and particularly in following the "Golden Ruly of Vampires" Do Not Be Seen, those transgressions against human laws actually become a matter of life and death for a vampire. They absolutely must lie to cover up their true identity and nature. They must commit those lesser crimes for the greater good.

The dealings between Bella and J Jenks are a perfect example. Her deception and violation of human identification laws was absolutely essential to guarantee the safety of her child and her best friend. And, lying to Edward about it was absolutely crucial in keeping the plan out of the heads of the Volturi.

I do find it slightly ironic that, once Bella is turned, she falls completely into the behavior that she so questioned in Edward, lying and hiding facts to protect those she loves. Yes, I recognize that it is slightly different given the fact that she was acting as a parent to protect her child. But, still....we all question Edward's sins of ommission or his "everything be damned" attitude when it comes to protecting his love. Are Bella's motives any different when protecting Jake and Ness?

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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby vampirenerd » Wed May 27, 2009 9:54 am

Just a little comment on the "sin" of lying. The vampires in Twilight aren't the only ones who lie to protect themselves or those they love. When it comes down to the point of whether or not lying to protect yourself is wrong I would have to say I don't think so. I was watching In Plain Sight last night and got to thinking. The people in witness protection programs are, essentially, lying (if you want to get technical). They have to move, change their names, and lie about who they are. If that is what it takes to keep you safe, I don't think it could be considered wrong, at least not to society. To God or whatever higher power is a completely different thing that I won't get into now lol. I just had that little thought and felt like sharing.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby edward4ever » Wed May 27, 2009 10:26 am

Dovrebanen wrote:
ringswraith wrote:

As has been stated, "sin" is not a concept limited solely to those who beileve in God. You can choose to not believe in any higher power, but still have a moral sense of right and wrong. And even if you didn't have a higher power, you can always answer to yourself.

Yes, that is what I was trying to convey in my post, ringswraith. Thanks.
I do not believe in God or the ten commandments (?spelling) or any of that. And I doubt that there is something after this life. I respect everyone who believes. And I also said that I didn't want to call it a sin, but for arguments sake I would. But that doesn't mean that I can't discuss it. Edward believed that he had committed sins. He believed that he had broken all of the commandments but one. So I'm was answering based on what Edward believes, not what I believe. I was discussing a book, not my personal beliefs. And in order to do that, I have to address the issue of Edward's soul and his sins, because it's an important part of why he doesn't want Bella to be a vampire.

Having that said, for me sin is not tied to something religious. And we do have someone to answer to when we committ sins/do bad things. We have to answer to ourselves, and to our families and loved ones. And we have to answer to society. And if we commit a crime, we have to answer to the victims of that crime and to the law. That's where we can get forgiveness and closure, or not. That's the way I see sins and atonement as applicable to my world, even if I'm not religious. It's about ethics and morals, and aknowledging you faults and try to make up for them. So I hope you can see where I'm coming from in this, edward4ever, and how I can comment on this even if I don't believe. The words still has meaning for me in the sense of what's right and what's not.


Wow, Great explanations people! Thanks! I guess because I see God in Everything (Not religion...God), it was hard for me to see the world of sin and atonement (to me--completely attached to God) through someone else's eyes. You have enlightened me and I appreaciate it. :D
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby ringswraith » Wed May 27, 2009 11:29 am

vampirenerd wrote:Just a little comment on the "sin" of lying. The vampires in Twilight aren't the only ones who lie to protect themselves or those they love. When it comes down to the point of whether or not lying to protect yourself is wrong I would have to say I don't think so. I was watching In Plain Sight last night and got to thinking. The people in witness protection programs are, essentially, lying (if you want to get technical). They have to move, change their names, and lie about who they are. If that is what it takes to keep you safe, I don't think it could be considered wrong, at least not to society. To God or whatever higher power is a completely different thing that I won't get into now lol. I just had that little thought and felt like sharing.


This sort of falls into a gray area. Also, witness protection programs are programs run by the state. We believe in the separation of church and state, so we shouldn't really compare the two. However, my personal opinion: yes, they're lying- but they're not hurting anyone in doing so. It's not exactly 100% right, but there are far worse things that could be lied about.
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Re: Edward and Bella 2

Postby amethyst » Wed May 27, 2009 1:06 pm

Jadey wrote:I don't think that Edward really made any sins. He killed people because of what he is.. and I don't blame him for killing people out of frustration and anger. He lied because he had to. He probably stole things cause he had to. He isn't human.. so it's impossible for him to try and go by the commandments. And I don't believe those rules apply to him... or should apply to him. I admire that he wants to stick to them, but he shouldn't blame himself for breaking them because it's not entirely his fault.
He knows he's done wrong, and he can ask for forgiveness if he really means it.
His heart is in the right place.. :lol:

My thoughts exactly Jadey.

As a human, I find our species to be nothing that Edward or any other vampire should care about. So here is my perspective… in reality, humans are at the very pinnacle of the food chain so we literally get to pick and choose from the many prey available that best satisfy us (chicken, sheep, cow etc). Now, in the Twilight world, the vampires are the ones who are at the very pinnacle of the food chain, and their prey that best satisfies them are us: humans. So I find it only natural that they would go along with how God (or nature for those who don’t believe in God) designed them to be.

I don’t feel that Edward needs to atone for killing humans. To me it’s simple, there’s nothing wrong or sinful about your natural food source (Yes, I am quoting Aro. I do agree with him), so there’s nothing to atone for. I don’t regard the Cullens or vampires with the same levity that I regard humans. While it is admirable that all the Cullens worked hard to cling to their human perception and are able to condemn their actions or doings as wrong or right . . . I really do disagree with them. So I definitely don’t see it as a “sin” or “wrong doing” when they kill humans. But for arguments sake, if I do think of Edward the way I think of a human, then his sins (excluding killing) are small ones like Jazz Girl had pointed out. Lying, stealing and so forth. But I still am not able to take them as serious as I wouldn’t have if it were a human.

And this is coming from a religious person, if anyone is curious.
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