The Volturi Coven and Guard

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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby The Dark Knight » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:28 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:DK, I wonder why you assume you know how they think better than all of us.... if there's any source of information that you're getting all this from, I'd love to be privy to it. If it's just speculation, we should remember that.


holdingoutforjacob wrote:DK, I wonder why you assume you know how they think better than all of us.... if there's any source of information that you're getting all this from, I'd love to be privy to it. If it's just speculation, we should remember that.



Actually, I don’t know that I think I know better, maybe that’s your assumption. What I do know is some of the posts are off base. Here's why I think that way. To understand the Volturi one needs to know from where they came, the culture, the mind set and attitudes. Further, one should profile them by their actions as best as we can.

So here's my back ground on the above criteria, you tell me if you have a better understanding from your knowledge base?

As the Volturi are most like Roman Citizens one can learn a lot from the people of that time frame from books like, Caesars treaties, Herodotus writings, the writing of Marcus Aurelius and my current study Emperor Trajan. If you have read these, I comment you, they are fairly dry readings that most do not take the time to read. These and the three top books on politics and war, The Prince, Art of War and Five Rings will give anyone the footing to have a fairly complete grasp of the Volturi world view.

Studying Aro, Caius and Marcus their actions are like the game of Go. I have mentioned this a few times but have not had anyone reply to it with any semblance of understanding. It is a very different game than Chess which gives one the ability to understand how they are likely think and a limited understanding of their motives.

These are some of my reasons for my view point. Do you find any fault in them? Does this give me a fairly good ability to analyze the Volturi?
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:39 am

I'm sorry to have offended you, but you speak with such authority, I was wondering if I'd missed something written by the author of the particular set of books in question. Which would be Twilight.

I'm sorry, but IMO, it doesn't really matter if you've read every book in the world about Ancient Rome. I'm sure you're very well-versed in your understanding of all of that, but they are SM's characters, and we need to look at them from HER knowledge base. Which is the Twilight Saga. I think that you are so caught up in all your background knowledge that you are missing the actual evidence of them as we have it in the books.
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby The Dark Knight » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:49 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:I'm sorry to have offended you, but you speak with such authority, I was wondering if I'd missed something written by the author of the particular set of books in question. Which would be Twilight.

I'm sorry, but IMO, it doesn't really matter if you've read every book in the world about Ancient Rome. I'm sure you're very well-versed in your understanding of all of that, but they are SM's characters, and we need to look at them from HER knowledge base. Which is the Twilight Saga. I think that you are so caught up in all your background knowledge that you are missing the actual evidence of them as we have it in the books.


So your discounting the profiling given from the book and the manner in which they think, the comment on GO? I dare say that SM did some research on the time frame before putting pin to paper. Maybe not as in depth of a history buff but at least enough to gain an insight in them. She also has a classical educational background. I grow up in Scottsdale too, attended a cross town rival to her HS albeit a few years before her time. They pushed reading the classic that she mentioned in her books and numerous others. I like to think that SM is pretty smart and well versed.
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:01 am

When did I ever doubt the intelligence of SM??? Don't try to sidestep the point, my friend.

While maybe SM knows all the information you have, I'm pretty sure the information she wanted us to judge her characters by is in her books. Not Sun Tzu's books. Her books.

I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid, it is. But it's also no more valid than those of us who haven't read any of those books, and I can't subscribe to the way of thinking that in order to fully understand the Volturi mindset you have to know all these things.
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby The Dark Knight » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:53 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:When did I ever doubt the intelligence of SM??? Don't try to sidestep the point, my friend.

While maybe SM knows all the information you have, I'm pretty sure the information she wanted us to judge her characters by is in her books. Not Sun Tzu's books. Her books.

I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid, it is. But it's also no more valid than those of us who haven't read any of those books, and I can't subscribe to the way of thinking that in order to fully understand the Volturi mindset you have to know all these things.



So let me get this straight, we can't judge SM's books by any other book? So the Merchant of Venice, Romeo and Juliet, Pride and Prejudice and Withering Heights are not foundations to her book and they "in no way" would help the reader understand her view point? I think you may have your Irish up...take a deep breath, calm down, relax nothing is worth getting that upset about.

You are of course allowed you opinion, no one is denying you that. Everyone is allowed their opinion, whether it is valid or more valid than someone else’s view is another thing entirely. Each and every one of us gets to make that decision when we read anything. I hope you can afford us that respect.

Let us both be clear, you are trying to invalidate my view because you think that's what I'm doing to yours. That is not true, but it's what's happening here. Step back and see it from outside of your view point. Is anything that I have said wiped your view off the map, nope? Does it differ from you, yep? Is your view still on the lexicon forum, yep? No one is taking your birthday away, so I again implore you, don't take it personal its everyone's right to have a say.
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby Asheleyo » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:48 pm

The Dark Knight wrote:Actually they don't burst into flames as Edward and Seth have to make the fire to put the parts of Riley and Victoria in. He also uses the purple ignitions. By the way a phosphorous grenade does not explode like you might think rather is melts down through things like a car & engine block. Pretty cool to see but the smell is awful.


SM said that the venom is highly flammable, as long as you can get them to stay still long enough to get close to the fire. They build a fire because that would more fully burn them. Just holding a lighter to their skin, they could run away and put it out before it kills them. So they're torn up and thrown on a fire, and (as far as I understood it) give off a purple-ish smoke when they burn. I always thought that was just what the venom did when it burnt. I never saw any mention of a grenade-type thing. Even at the ballet studio, they just pull up the wood floors and set fire to it to burn James. No toys of any sort. I thought the dark colored smoke was a nice touch, since it is burning off this acrid, terrible venom that so vastly transformed them.
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:13 pm

DK, stop it. Don't tell me not to "get my Irish up" because it's offensive. Don't condescend to me. I'm perfectly calm, you're clearly the one who's getting upset.

Did I not say, in the post you quoted, that all of our viewpoints were valid?? But you, with your background knowledge, have a tendency to come off as though you know sooo much more on the subject than we do.

Obviously we can judge SM's books on the ones she specifies were her influence, but her characters are creations of her imagination. What I am saying is that whatever you may have read in The Art of War doesn't give you any more insight into the minds of the Volturi than the rest of us.
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby The Dark Knight » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:16 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:DK, stop it. Don't tell me not to "get my Irish up" because it's offensive. Don't condescend to me. I'm perfectly calm, you're clearly the one who's getting upset.

Did I not say, in the post you quoted, that all of our viewpoints were valid?? But you, with your background knowledge, have a tendency to come off as though you know sooo much more on the subject than we do.

Obviously we can judge SM's books on the ones she specifies were her influence, but her characters are creations of her imagination. What I am saying is that whatever you may have read in The Art of War doesn't give you any more insight into the minds of the Volturi than the rest of us.


Your welcome to believe what you want, but remember you asked me what sources I had that gave me the insights I had. You did not specify SM books only. I answered the question you ask.
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby diane771 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:23 pm

The Dark Knight wrote:
holdingoutforjacob wrote:When did I ever doubt the intelligence of SM??? Don't try to sidestep the point, my friend.

While maybe SM knows all the information you have, I'm pretty sure the information she wanted us to judge her characters by is in her books. Not Sun Tzu's books. Her books.

I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid, it is. But it's also no more valid than those of us who haven't read any of those books, and I can't subscribe to the way of thinking that in order to fully understand the Volturi mindset you have to know all these things.



So let me get this straight, we can't judge SM's books by any other book? So the Merchant of Venice, Romeo and Juliet, Pride and Prejudice and Withering Heights are not foundations to her book and they "in no way" would help the reader understand her view point? I think you may have your Irish up...take a deep breath, calm down, relax nothing is worth getting that upset about.

You are of course allowed you opinion, no one is denying you that. Everyone is allowed their opinion, whether it is valid or more valid than someone else’s view is another thing entirely. Each and every one of us gets to make that decision when we read anything. I hope you can afford us that respect.

Let us both be clear, you are trying to invalidate my view because you think that's what I'm doing to yours. That is not true, but it's what's happening here. Step back and see it from outside of your view point. Is anything that I have said wiped your view off the map, nope? Does it differ from you, yep? Is your view still on the lexicon forum, yep? No one is taking your birthday away, so I again implore you, don't take it personal its everyone's right to have a say.


I think its very creative to compare different books on the same subjects. Didn't anybody who read Twilight for the first time say "I never read a story about vampires like SM's. That statement in itself is comparing what you were exposed to vampires. To compare but not judge I feel is acceptable and I don't think SM would have a problem with that. All the books that were mentioned were well read books and just historic in themself. Think of the poems, The Iliad,The Odyssey, many, many scholars study that poem to get history from them. So I feel that a comparison of how the Volturi and other fictional or nonfictional rulers is ok to do with the understanding its just a comparison and not a fact or anything more than that. Since we do get a little background of the Volruri we can piece together a little about how they work and from their very names a possible time and place of birth. These are all speculations but no ones speculations is better than another. The more idea
the more we might piece together something. This is only my opinion and my pov on the subject at hand.
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Re: The Volturi Coven and Guard

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:25 pm

You're exactly right. But taking that background knowledge, then assuming you know better than the evidence presented to you in the books is not conducive to exploring new opinions.
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