Edward Cullen #5

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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby moon sidhe » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:51 am

The Dark Knight wrote:That'w why we have an 80% return to jail rate...Those that break of codes of society are no worthy to live among the society any longer... Our weakness is that we care and what to see good where evil lives and thus we can not bring ourselves to do wht needs to be done. That is why we suffer so. If Justice was swift and final there would be far fewer willing to do evils bidding...


Hmm, not sure I can agree that the reason for an 80% return to jail rate is because those people don't want to better themselves. I mean, jail is not a rehabilitation. It's a punishment. So you can't criticize the effectiveness of rehabilitation based on the ineffectiveness of jail. If anything, the ineffectiveness of jail as a deterrent is an argument for rehabilitation. I mean, I dunno, to me, I would call it evil to be unwilling to see the goodness in everyone. Everyone has the ability to be good if given the chance and the opportunity. Someone just has to believe in them. I guess I kind of sound like Pollyanna here, and for sure there are people out there capable of some real nastiness, and I'm not trying to deny that, but I just can't see being able to "wipe out evil" without believing that people are capable of more than what they appear to be.
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby The Dark Knight » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:02 am

moon sidhe wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:That'w why we have an 80% return to jail rate...Those that break of codes of society are no worthy to live among the society any longer... Our weakness is that we care and what to see good where evil lives and thus we can not bring ourselves to do wht needs to be done. That is why we suffer so. If Justice was swift and final there would be far fewer willing to do evils bidding...


Hmm, not sure I can agree that the reason for an 80% return to jail rate is because those people don't want to better themselves. I mean, jail is not a rehabilitation. It's a punishment. So you can't criticize the effectiveness of rehabilitation based on the ineffectiveness of jail. If anything, the ineffectiveness of jail as a deterrent is an argument for rehabilitation. I mean, I dunno, to me, I would call it evil to be unwilling to see the goodness in everyone. Everyone has the ability to be good if given the chance and the opportunity. Someone just has to believe in them. I guess I kind of sound like Pollyanna here, and for sure there are people out there capable of some real nastiness, and I'm not trying to deny that, but I just can't see being able to "wipe out evil" without believing that people are capable of more than what they appear to be.


Very Pollyanna of you, but that's OK. I can hold that 80% return to prison is that persons fault. Only those that have the attitude I want to make a better life for myself and the Go do it make it. Those that are weaker just don't. Better to put them down than to have them caged for life or more like no life. The best deterence is one that make everyone stop to think before they do something stupid. It is proven that in societies where swift and final punishment is present that crime of all kinds is lower. It makes the ones that are borderline think twice and those that are not worth saving are punted out of the gene pool...

You know this might be how Edward decided who was to be eat, what do yo think?
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby holdingoutforjacob » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:09 am

The Dark Knight wrote:
holdingoutforjacob wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:
holdingoutforjacob wrote:Actually, evil exists because good men, in the essence of being good men, will not stoop to the same level as evil.


You do not have to stoop to stop them, just be there to detour them or despence Justice. Old school style preferrably, edward understood that...


I refuse to be thwarted by your continual subject changes!

So it makes you more "good" to kill the problem rather than lock it up, or better yet, fix them?? That seems to be a very archaic way of looking at it.

It's the age old death penalty/no death penalty or punishment/rehabilitation debate.


No debate here, I'm anachronism...Yes, rehabilitation only works if the subject has the want to and go do attitude to be on the right path...That'w why we have an 80% return to jail rate...Those that break of codes of society are no worthy to live among the society any longer... Our weakness is that we care and what to see good where evil lives and thus we can not bring ourselves to do wht needs to be done. That is why we suffer so. If Justice was swift and final there would be far fewer willing to do evils bidding...


Really? So the 15-year-old who's known nothing but the harshness of the streets deserves to die for following what he knows?? That seems mighty unfair to me.
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby The Dark Knight » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:24 am

holdingoutforjacob wrote:
No debate here, I'm anachronism...Yes, rehabilitation only works if the subject has the want to and go do attitude to be on the right path...That'w why we have an 80% return to jail rate...Those that break of codes of society are no worthy to live among the society any longer... Our weakness is that we care and what to see good where evil lives and thus we can not bring ourselves to do wht needs to be done. That is why we suffer so. If Justice was swift and final there would be far fewer willing to do evils bidding...


Really? So the 15-year-old who's known nothing but the harshness of the streets deserves to die for following what he knows?? That seems mighty unfair to me.[/quote]


Lifes unfair to begin with...to add to it other non-realistic measure that only exassperate the situation is the unfair thing. Would this boy of 15 who is a gang banger that shoot into a crowd killing people and wounding other really deserve a second chance. Is the scar fromt the killing ever going to go away...Nope
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby moon sidhe » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:32 am

The Dark Knight wrote:
Very Pollyanna of you, but that's OK. I can hold that 80% return to prison is that persons fault. Only those that have the attitude I want to make a better life for myself and the Go do it make it. Those that are weaker just don't. Better to put them down than to have them caged for life or more like no life. The best deterence is one that make everyone stop to think before they do something stupid. It is proven that in societies where swift and final punishment is present that crime of all kinds is lower. It makes the ones that are borderline think twice and those that are not worth saving are punted out of the gene pool...

You know this might be how Edward decided who was to be eat, what do yo think?


Well, I think those societies that have uber violent punishments still breed some uber violent people, in fact those uber violent people are usually the ones in the positions of power in those types of societies. They're usually dictatorships led by nasty, violent people. You're basically trading one set of crimes for another. And trading my freedom to be led by a bunch of vicious thugs is in no way even close to worth it to me. Not all rules are meant to be followed just because they exist, and they're rules. There are plenty of rules that I totally disagree with and don't feel much compunction in breaking. And I still stand by the fact that the reason jail has such a huge recidivism rate is because it's not actually doing anything to help people. All people do in there is rot. It doesn't change whatever life circumstances may have led you there in the first place. If it actually tried to help all those addicts who end up there, some of them might actually be able to recover. And I mean, you're talking about putting people down? I don't know, to me that kind of attitude is a bit disturbing. I think it can be quite easy to sit on our high horses and judge all those people from where we stand, but I just don't feel right doing it. Who am I to judge? I don't know them. I don't know what they've been through, and I sure as hell shouldn't be deciding if another person has the right to exist. Phew. Ok, end philosophical rant. heh.

Back to Edward, well, I think that fan fic I recommended up above paints a really excellent hypothetical picture of how Edward judged who was worthy of eating. It's just. so. good. haha. But if we want to base it purely on what we know from the books, umm... I think he tried to use his mind reading capabilities to find people who had committed what he deemed to be irreconcilable deeds. And then he did them in. Ultimately though, I have a feeling he came to a similar conclusion that I did. Namely, who is he to judge?
You are in my blood like holy wine
and you taste so bitter but you taste so sweet
Oh I could drink a case of you darling
And I would still be on my feet
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby The Dark Knight » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:48 am

moon sidhe wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:
Very Pollyanna of you, but that's OK. I can hold that 80% return to prison is that persons fault. Only those that have the attitude I want to make a better life for myself and the Go do it make it. Those that are weaker just don't. Better to put them down than to have them caged for life or more like no life. The best deterence is one that make everyone stop to think before they do something stupid. It is proven that in societies where swift and final punishment is present that crime of all kinds is lower. It makes the ones that are borderline think twice and those that are not worth saving are punted out of the gene pool...

You know this might be how Edward decided who was to be eat, what do yo think?


Well, I think those societies that have uber violent punishments still breed some uber violent people, in fact those uber violent people are usually the ones in the positions of power in those types of societies. They're usually dictatorships led by nasty, violent people. You're basically trading one set of crimes for another. And trading my freedom to be led by a bunch of vicious thugs is in no way even close to worth it to me. Not all rules are meant to be followed just because they exist, and they're rules. There are plenty of rules that I totally disagree with and don't feel much compunction in breaking. And I still stand by the fact that the reason jail has such a huge recidivism rate is because it's not actually doing anything to help people. All people do in there is rot. It doesn't change whatever life circumstances may have led you there in the first place. If it actually tried to help all those addicts who end up there, some of them might actually be able to recover. And I mean, you're talking about putting people down? I don't know, to me that kind of attitude is a bit disturbing. I think it can be quite easy to sit on our high horses and judge all those people from where we stand, but I just don't feel right doing it. Who am I to judge? I don't know them. I don't know what they've been through, and I sure as hell shouldn't be deciding if another person has the right to exist. Phew. Ok, end philosophical rant. heh.

***Clearly you have never spent any time in a prison. I have several freind who are Correctionl officers for the state of Arizona and California. I even taugh a few close order combat classes to a few cert teams a while back. If you got to know the criminals and spent time with them then your attitude about their worth would likely change. They have in them the ability to be nice just up to the point that they shank you in the back. Hard fact of life to learn...Some should die that others may live is a basic law of survival that we in polite society forget in the comforts of our lives. Who are we to judge, we are just regular folks asked to do our civic duty to sit on juries to hear th facts and seek justice where justice is needed to pronounce guilt or innociense base of the facts at hand, nothing more and nothing less.

Back to Edward, well, I think that fan fic I recommended up above paints a really excellent hypothetical picture of how Edward judged who was worthy of eating. It's just. so. good. haha. But if we want to base it purely on what we know from the books, umm... I think he tried to use his mind reading capabilities to find people who had committed what he deemed to be irreconcilable deeds. And then he did them in. Ultimately though, I have a feeling he came to a similar conclusion that I did. Namely, who is he to judge?


You maybe right or it could be that he just grew tired being judge and jury...he wanted to be selfish and take it easy...I just don't have the time nor desire to keep up with all the great fan fics out there...maybe anothe day...
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby The Dark Knight » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:15 am

Can we hop back to this quote as it pertains to Edward character?

What make a man who he is? Is it the worst things he has ever done or the best things he wants to be. When you find yourself in the middle of your life and you are nowhere near where you where going. How do you find a way from the person you have become to the one you could have been.
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby moon sidhe » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:16 am

The Dark Knight wrote:***Clearly you have never spent any time in a prison. I have several freind who are Correctionl officers for the state of Arizona and California. I even taugh a few close order combat classes to a few cert teams a while back. If you got to know the criminals and spent time with them then your attitude about their worth would likely change. They have in them the ability to be nice just up to the point that they shank you in the bac


Hmm, well, I don't know if I trust a correctional officer to have the most unbiased view of things. Nothing against your friends or anything. I'm sure there are all kinds of horribly vicious scum-of-the-earth types they have to deal with and I don't envy them their jobs. But I say that mostly because I suspect the ones they have to deal with the most are the ones who cause the most problems. So it would tend to color the way you see everyone in there. But I'm clearly pulling this out of my backside, since I honestly don't know what it's like to either be a correctional officer or a prisoner and hope to god that I never have to find out. haha. I can, however, say that I've heard stories from people who I know beyond a shadow of a doubt were very wrongly incarcerated, and they get treated like crap for no good reason, and I'm not talking about by inmates. Our prison system totally sucks if you ask me. When you treat people like that, don't expect them to treat you fairly in return is all I can say.

The Dark Knight wrote:Hard fact of life to learn...Some should die that others may live is a basic law of survival that we in polite society forget in the comforts of our lives. Who are we to judge, we are just regular folks asked to do our civic duty to sit on juries to hear th facts and seek justice where justice is needed to pronounce guilt or innociense base of the facts at hand, nothing more and nothing less.


Well, ultimately I think the two us have pretty irreconcilable world views. Because I in no way believe that it's a hard fact of life that some have to die for others to live.

The Dark Knight wrote:You maybe right or it could be that he just grew tired being judge and jury...he wanted to be selfish and take it easy...I just don't have the time nor desire to keep up with all the great fan fics out there...maybe anothe day...


I also in absolutely no way believe that it's "selfish" or "easy" to decide that you don't have the right to judge others. In fact I think it can sometimes be rather lazy to judge others without taking the time to understand them. hah. So anyway, irreconcilable world views I think is the conclusion here.
You are in my blood like holy wine
and you taste so bitter but you taste so sweet
Oh I could drink a case of you darling
And I would still be on my feet
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby The Dark Knight » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:30 am

moon sidhe wrote:
The Dark Knight wrote:***Clearly you have never spent any time in a prison. I have several freind who are Correctionl officers for the state of Arizona and California. I even taugh a few close order combat classes to a few cert teams a while back. If you got to know the criminals and spent time with them then your attitude about their worth would likely change. They have in them the ability to be nice just up to the point that they shank you in the bac


Hmm, well, I don't know if I trust a correctional officer to have the most unbiased view of things. Nothing against your friends or anything. I'm sure there are all kinds of horribly vicious scum-of-the-earth types they have to deal with and I don't envy them their jobs. But I say that mostly because I suspect the ones they have to deal with the most are the ones who cause the most problems. So it would tend to color the way you see everyone in there. But I'm clearly pulling this out of my backside, since I honestly don't know what it's like to either be a correctional officer or a prisoner and hope to god that I never have to find out. haha. I can, however, say that I've heard stories from people who I know beyond a shadow of a doubt were very wrongly incarcerated, and they get treated like crap for no good reason, and I'm not talking about by inmates. Our prison system totally sucks if you ask me. When you treat people like that, don't expect them to treat you fairly in return is all I can say.

The Dark Knight wrote:Hard fact of life to learn...Some should die that others may live is a basic law of survival that we in polite society forget in the comforts of our lives. Who are we to judge, we are just regular folks asked to do our civic duty to sit on juries to hear th facts and seek justice where justice is needed to pronounce guilt or innociense base of the facts at hand, nothing more and nothing less.


Well, ultimately I think the two us have pretty irreconcilable world views. Because I in no way believe that it's a hard fact of life that some have to die for others to live.

The Dark Knight wrote:You maybe right or it could be that he just grew tired being judge and jury...he wanted to be selfish and take it easy...I just don't have the time nor desire to keep up with all the great fan fics out there...maybe anothe day...


I also in absolutely no way believe that it's "selfish" or "easy" to decide that you don't have the right to judge others. In fact I think it can sometimes be rather lazy to judge others without taking the time to understand them. hah. So anyway, irreconcilable world views I think is the conclusion here.


Ok, I leave you with this, if you have never been in the underbelly of humanity or had to deal with it directly and personally i conclude that it is not fair to judge wht should be done to correct things...As for prison systems, maybe we should jsut let the victums family have them so they can dispence Justice...Seems fitting
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Re: Edward Cullen #5

Postby moon sidhe » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:36 am

I think irreconcilable world views is my new mantra when it comes to you, DK. ;) But don't get me wrong, I definitely appreciate a different perspective. There wouldn't be any fun debates otherwise.

Anyway, I feel that we have greatly digressed from our initial Edward discussion. But it seems like our viewpoints on his whole vigilante thing boil down to I'm glad he stopped, and you wish he had kept going. The end. hehe.

New topic?
You are in my blood like holy wine
and you taste so bitter but you taste so sweet
Oh I could drink a case of you darling
And I would still be on my feet
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